Ending the mommy wars has become quite the news item and one that everyone seems to get on board with. I mean, how can you not? Doesn’t it sound so lovely to say that we have to support each other as moms no matter what we do? After all, they’re just choices and isn’t each choice as valid and wonderful as the rest? If we all just accepted this, the world would be… well, what would it be?
What would it be if we decided to no longer talk about breastfeeding versus formula, sleep training, circumcision, spanking, and the many other things that seem to constitute the basis of these “mommy wars”? What would it be if we said anything goes and that using formula is just as good as breastfeeding regardless of the reason you used formula? Or if spanking was just another way one person chooses to discipline over another?
It would be shit.
Why? Because in many cases these parenting “choices” aren’t actually choices and when we try to take these acts and turn them into 100% voluntary acts by every family, we ignore the problems that lead parents to make some of the so-called choices they do. I see it first hand on EP when I write about any research on anything. People come out with their personal experiences, pissed that I would share something that could possibly suggest another way is associated with better outcomes or that “their” way is associated with a higher risk of bad outcomes. Yet almost inevitably they mention the numerous “traps” or problems they faced that led to the choice to use formula, sleep train, circumcise, spank, etc. The only problem is that they now see it as an insult that you’ve presented research saying their “choice” isn’t just as good as what they initially had hoped to do.
At this stage of trying to get everyone to say all parenting acts are equal, you are not only calling for the cessation of sharing information, but to stop fighting for a society that should enable families to make true choices (whatever they are). Sleep training your 3 month old because you have to back at work at six weeks, switching to formula because your child has an undiagnosed tongue tie and you don’t have a lactation consultant on your medical plan and can’t afford one, or pushing your child to ‘self-settle’ when he isn’t ready because you are bombarded with false information about what you should be expecting from your child are not true choices. (You may do any of these things after tons of research or realizing it’s best for your family after weighing pros and cons and you actually have the option of different choices; that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with, as many people disagree with co-sleeping or breastfeeding a toddler, but when you *don’t* have a real choice, it’s a problem.) You’re being pushed into making the ‘lesser of two evils’ choice that only a society that is non-supportive of families and doesn’t freely share information allows. And that sucks. You should be pissed.
Some of you may be ready to jump in about how you have been bombarded by a stranger at the store while buying formula, claiming you’re poisoning your child, or something like that. Folks – that’s not a mommy wars problem, that’s an asshole problem. And sadly there are assholes everywhere and all the rhetoric about supporting each other isn’t going to change those people. But it’s also indicative of the larger problem too – by framing the issue into “choice”, this person believes you are making a true choice without knowing your individual circumstance and that you may have made the decision that works best for your family. Maybe it is a true choice (i.e., you weren’t painted into a corner to make it because of circumstances but had options and chose one after thinking of the pros and cons) and you’ve done all your research and come to this conclusion about what’s best for you and your family taken as a whole, and that’s why the person still remains an asshole, but for many it’s not, yet that’s exactly what “ending the mommy wars” is pushing for it to be seen as.
There’s that quote about how the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist. I will say this, the people that benefit from the way our society currently is – the government that doesn’t want to offer family-friendly policies, the businesses that don’t want to change to support their workers, the formula companies who want to make a profit over all else, the baby “experts” who don’t read a lick of research but want to sell their books anyway – have managed the great feat of making us think the real problem is with other moms. Instead of turning against those who benefit from reducing our choices and fighting for a better place to raise our kids where we don’t have to worry about booby traps or sleep traps and where our choices would be true choices, we have turned on each other even more.
Only now those of us who aren’t towing the line and continue to share information are viewed as the “bad guys”. Those of us who want to change things so that families are supported and given real options are accused of just trying to make people feel “guilty” or say it’s “our way or nothing”. We are heading down a path where families will have fewer and fewer true choices if we allow it. We can’t. We have to do something if we want families to really feel supported and cared for, not just given lip service to.
The “mommy wars” don’t need to end. In fact, they need to get bigger and bigger. They just need to be redirected at the real problem: A society that doesn’t support families.
Great post! I totally agree and have been saying this very thing (but less eloquently) for many months now. Thank you for continuing to speak out for families.
I love this post so much. Awesome.
Agree 100%. Thank you for another fabulous piece!
I agree with this post entirely! So much so that I shared it with a mothering group on Facebook. The backlash was incredible. Like you, I would rather support mothers by helping them improve their situations. But it seems I’m one of those “bad guys” for trying to fight for them and for trying to help them fight for themselves. I’m extremely disappointed in the reaction but won’t let that stop me from talking about these important issues. Thank you, too, for keeping the dialogue going!
I’m sorry Bekah 🙁 Yeah, sadly I think people have decided it’s about fighting the assholes when that’s a losing battle and there’s a far more important battle for us to wage together.
YES. The wars shouldn’t be between mothers, they should be waged BY mothers against a society and culture that is almost always conspiring against us.
Disagree, from personal experience.
I had a c-section. I don’t say this to many moms in real-life because I get the smarmy respose akin to: “Oh, you poor uneducated thing! Did those ickle doctors fool you? How could you not have a water birth in the tears of virgins while your pagan doula rode around you on a unicorn? How can you call yourself a mother?”
Here’s the thing: parenting *is* a choice. If you do not like the choice another parent makes, you can try to give them information. They might give you *just* as much conflicting information back. Who is right? Who is just being self-righteous?
If you’re going to give free advice, ask the other moms for their shoes first. Go walk a mile, then come back and have a non-condescending conversation. Don’t treat other parents like they don’t know what they’re doing.
Kate, the people you’ve encountered are the assholes. And I’m sorry – sadly being a mother doesn’t preclude one from being rude.
The argument here is that people can and will come to different choices, but we want to make sure they’re coming to it not because they’ve had zero support of live in a society that doesn’t support family, but because they read info and got to that conclusion themselves.
Tracy – I agree with Kate. If you truly want a depth of support for families and women in our society, a tone of self-righteousness and snobbery–with an intentionally divisive, blog-attention-grubbing message–is unlikely to get you there. Your argument that we do need more support and information is great. Perhaps you could write about it in more positive and inclusive ways.
Women don’t just need more information. We need respect and support even if we don’t happen to march in lockstep with other moms.
It’s also hard to place *too* much faith in whatever the latest parenting trend happens to be, and the research that inevitably supports it. In the 1930s, experts absolutely knew, through rigorous research, that it was “bad” to touch and hold babies too much. (Reading about this when my son was two months old made me weep!) In the ’40s, good moms knew to spray their kids’ rooms with DDT.
In the ’50s and ’60s, bacteria and all germs were proved by scientists to destroy children, and so it was deemed better to have them wallow in Lysol than to be exposed to the bacterial spectrum that recent science shows is good for kids. On and on it goes. (If you like this kind of nerdy thing, I totally recommend reading Thomas S. Kuhn’s “The Structure of Scientific Revolution,” on paradigm theory.)
Incidentally, I’m not opposed to the attachment parenting movement. I spent nearly 18 months blissfully attached to our “pouch” (baby carrier). I’m sure I will eventually be awarded medals because my son doesn’t eat sugar, has very strict screen-time and screen content rules, wears cloth diapers, and eats organic. 🙂
Yay me. It’s not a coincidence that I’m middle class, educated, white, live in a liberal neighborhood in a fairly liberal city, have a partner and many friends who are amazingly supportive, and I don’t actually *have* to work more than a minimal part-time on a home business. I’m lucky. All that privilege means I can do things like have lactation consultants, buy organic food, and spend time with my son.
But the attitude in this piece comes off as mean and unrealistic to me. I’m guessing you didn’t intend that, not if you genuinely want social change. Part of why people feel comfortable being self-righteous, judgemental assholes to losers like me who — heaven forfend! — had emergency C sections, and in my case couldn’t breastfeed despite three solid months of very frequent lactation consultant help (they were funding it from a grant to help “difficult cases”!) is that articles like this give them permission to do so. You’re all fighting the good fight against us heathens, is how it ends up sounding.
The world is screwed-up and it’s noble to want change, to help change happen. I’m not dissin’ you for that. I tend to be a big self-righteous crusader person myself, but parenting has kicked my high horse in the butt. The difficulties and laughs and shared, intense experiences of parenting have created more compassion instead of more judgement. Which in itself sounds lofty and smug, but I don’t know how else to describe it… parenting has made me realize that I don’t have all the answers and that most people are doing their best, even when they’re parenting in ways that I sure as hell don’t want to.
It can feel disturbing, not having a solid set of rules and dogmas to throw around, just watching things from a grey area and trying to feel my way around each individual situation. For me it’s been valuable, still is being valuable. I’m still judgmental, way more than I want to be, but when I see someone struggle with their parenting and loving their children, I don’t think it’s my place to run up and steal the sugar cookie out of their children’s hands or demand they stop serving birthday cakes. (My son brings his own “treats,” like non-sugar cookies, to other people’s parties. That’s my problem, not the other parents’ problem.) If they want or need to work full-time, I might think it’s sad that they miss out on the hardcore attachment time, but I recognize that it is their decision.
I’m sorry you read into this piece that way. I thought I was clear at distinguishing between asshole behaviour (which is what you’re describing) and the sharing of information and fighting the real problems. I just don’t see that you’re going to change people who are assholes with the “end the mommy wars” rhetoric because I don’t think they’re listening. So let’s focus on making changes. Something I do try to do – why we have the downloadable letter on the site to ask for increases in paid maternity leave for US parents, or in the cry-it-out piece I spoke about parents coming together to help each other which led to a group being founded in NZ to do that, etc.
Yes, sometimes I’m going to sound rude (like here) because I find the entire “end the mommy wars” so frustrating to listen to. I see companies who don’t want to offer proper leave or pumping time and then people get mad because someone shared an article that says breastfeeding protects against various diseases.
As for attachment parenting – I agree science doesn’t tell us all, but we share the info. For me, it’s why we look to human history for how babies have been cared for to see what we can think of as “biologically normal”. Some of our changes will improve upon this, many won’t. But this is what should be the baseline, in my opinion.
There’s no reason we can’t “end the mommy wars” AND promote social welfare, corporate responsibility, education, and the like.
Do you allow your children to ride in cars?
“Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children of every age from 2 to 14 years old.” Not having been given formula as a baby, not having been born by Caesarian section, not having multiple caregivers instead of just mama… CAR CRASHES. And yet most of us drive or take motorized public transportation. We know that cars contribute to pollution and environmental damage in dozens of ways. If you have ever driven, despite clearly being smart and probably already knowing this information, then you should understand why people don’t always do exactly the proper, smart thing.
It’s not necessarily ignorance. It’s because we’ve made choices about the risks we take, risks that potentially endanger ourselves, our children, and our planet.
So how about if we sit down and say, “OK, we’re making different decisions and taking different risks. Can we find a good way to share information about what we’ve learned?”
I agree we make assessments, but no where did I ever say every decision was made out of ignorance. Nor did I say we need to preach to everyone, but making sure all info is out there (ALL and from various sources) is needed. More than that, we need policies in place and I still maintain that the mommy wars tries to boil things down to the idea that every mom made her choice in the truest sense and I don’t think that’s the case. So long as that’s what’s being touted, I don’t see how we can do both. That’s my perception and feel free to disagree though.
T Brown, I agree with you. I think, with the title referring to “Mommy Wars,” it didn’t come across as the author may have wanted, because war would imply people adamantly staking their claim and swearing they are right about everything. Mommy “wars” ARE those parents who take a firm stance on their position and make the person with a different opinion seem like the enemy in the war. I do see the author’s point about the information being important. Sure it is. However, I often feel mothers (the ones involved in these “wars”) don’t have a lack of information. The mothers who often hear the condescending comments are the ones who, the moment they found out they were pregnant (or even before) got every book they could find on every different method of everything that has anything to do with baby. They signed up for every “see how your baby is developing this month” email. They subscribed to every baby magazine they could find. They know the information. They made their choice based on the information or based on what their individual situation called for. Or they may be moms like TBrown whose choice was made for her when she realized her child wasn’t being nourished through breast milk despite numerous attempts and tons of assistance. I really agree with her that it is important for moms to realize we are in this together and not judge one another. My baby was losing weight and I could not produce enough milk for him. He’s in the 95th %ile for weight, so he requires a lot of food. He was just 2 days old and I had to go back to the doctor 3 times in one week to check his weight because he wasn’t gaining, so they were worried. He would just cry and cry. It devastated me. I cried and cried too, because I so wanted to be that mom who nursed at least until he was 1. But I came to accept that, and I hope it will work out with my next baby. The last thing I needed was the stink eye or a look of condemnation because I was buying or preparing formula. I was already hormonal having just given birth. Moms really need to support each other and realize we are NOT each other, and we have NOT experienced everything the other has. We cannot judge what they are doing or the methods they use as if they’re uninformed just because they aren’t going along with the latest craze. And T Brown is also right about that…if you ask people of my parents’ generation, they’ll tell you people gave the stink eye to moms who nursed! What goes around comes around. We need to just relax and do the best we can! 🙂 Mommy wars (as the name would imply) need to end. But mommy discussions should continue as informational resources, not condemnation (which I think was the author’s real purpose)! 🙂
April, I feel like your situation describes EXACTLY what the author is talking about. It sounds to me like you weren’t actually being given the information to make the choice that YOU wanted. You wanted to breastfeed. You tried. But from what you describe, you were not given the support from the people who, according to Dr. Amy, know everything about breastfeeding and child nutrition and parenting.
I want to preface my comments below by saying this: I do not judge you. I do not think you made a bad choice in any way. I think that you did what was best for your situation and you are a GOOD MOM for providing your child with love and nutrition. Formula isn’t inherently bad. Moms who use formula aren’t bad, or wrong, or lesser. I simply want to clarify some things that you said yourself. Because it sounds to me like you weren’t left with a choice in the end.
“My baby was losing weight and I could not produce enough milk for him.” — What indicators besides weight loss do you have that you weren’t producing enough milk? Did anyone ask you about actually reliable indicators of supply?
“He’s in the 95th %ile for weight, so he requires a lot of food.” –Total fallacy. Big babies don’t require more food.
“He was just 2 days old and I had to go back to the doctor 3 times in one week to check his weight because he wasn’t gaining, so they were worried.” — At 24 hours, a baby is expected to be at their lowest weight. By 2 days, he should still be below birth weight. This is normal. This is not a problem or a concern or a worry. It takes an average of 1-2 weeks, and a range of normal up to 3 weeks, for a newborn to be back at their birth weight, particularly if IV fluids were received in labor. Going to the doctor for required weight checks 3 times in the first week probably DID cause worry and stress, which lo and behold CAN impact milk supply. Did your son have anything besides weight loss that concerned your pediatrician?
“He would just cry and cry. It devastated me. I cried and cried too, because I so wanted to be that mom who nursed at least until he was 1.” — All newborns cry. Breastfed babies cry soon after eating because breastmilk digests more efficiently. Babies are designed to eat frequently, and be hungry often.
“But I came to accept that, and I hope it will work out with my next baby.” I am very glad that you are willing to try again. I also hope that you seek out a pediatrician who practices evidence-based medicine and has a certified lactation consultant on staff.
“The last thing I needed was the stink eye or a look of condemnation because I was buying or preparing formula” –This goes back to it being an asshole problem. I am a breastfeeder. I am working on my certification as a consultant. But I would NEVER give anyone the stinkeye for buying formula or giving a bottle. I would never tell her that choice is inferior. I would never judge her for it. Those who do are just assholes.
It sounds to me like you were booby trapped, and that your frustration toward people like Tracy would be better served being aimed at the people who failed you.
April, yes, exactly what Bethany said! I was about to reply about the same thing… you are exactly the kind of person this article was written about (IMO). I don’t judge you for not breastfeeding, but I think it’s terribly sad that you weren’t given the proper support by medical professionals and that you didn’t have all the information to know those problems you were facing were perfectly normal parts of newborn behavior. Bethany countered each point very well so I won’t add except to say that she’s totally right, every problem you faced is a classic booby trap and you were totally producing enough milk!
The problem with this is, you are like “oh I just want to make sure every mother makes that choice for herself and not because society failed her. So even if she didn’t breastfeed because of XYZ, I’m going to assume its because she didn’t have the right resources and if she had, she would have done it better. So every time I offer ‘helpful’ advice its because I’m assuming your a great person, who just is stupid, didn’t read enough or society didn’t support you enough to make the right decision” THAT’S THE PROBLEM. Don’t get my wrong. I believe in peaceful parenting, I think CIO is mean, I didn’t circumcise my sons, i feed them organic, I limit screen time. BUT I am starting to see the breakdown, online and in REAL LIFE. Talking to other mothers, mothers I’ve only just met.. and instead of diving in and talking about REAL PARENTING.. you skirt the “hot issues” … I do not.. and their eyes BULGE when I admit to a old lady lecturing me when I left my 4 kids in the car for 5 minutes to go to the post office or my child was playing with a glass cup which shattered and cut his hand…. But they laugh and they get relieved because I’m not a mother on a crusade to ‘educate and civilize’ other mothers. So no, you can’t say you’re not being an asshole just because you think society has failed them. You’re being an asshole because you act like every parenting is either RIGHT or ILL-INFORMED and if they were informed, they would have done it RIGHT. I am a good mother even if a make ill-informed or perfectly informed or bad or good or down right selfish decisions for my children. THEY ARE MINE. I don’t condone child abuse.. but I also don’t buy into the fact that we’ve suddenly entered an age where we have ALL THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO BE A PERFECT PARENT. Good luck educating the masses!
I think this is the most balanced of the comments I have read so far. Let me just say that the “stink eye” and condescension does not end. I am 50-ish, and have raised three daughters. They can’t believe I gave birth without having gone through Lamaze classes, used pacifiers and didn’t consider breast feeding after I returned to work 6 weeks after each C-section. They consider this evidence that I didn’t “know better.” That is not true – I made the decisions based on multiple factors and doing what I thought was best for everyone’s mental and physical health. I too would like the Mommy wars to end. I’m tired of defending my choices.
Wonderful comment. This is how I felt about the article. I am an organic buying, cloth diapering, natural water birth mom and I find it hard to watch people who don’t parent like me, but then I realize that I wasn’t parented like that and I think my parents did a good job with my siblings and I. My best friend does some things quite differently than me and her kids are wonderful. We need to just cut each other some slack. Keep research going on the healthiest ways to raise kids but don’t judge people when it doesn’t fit well with them. I had to go back to work at 4 months because we are broke and I’m sure many people would judge me for that.
+1000 to Samantha
The problem with “just sharing information” is that you’re being a condescending a##hole. Sorry to use Bethany as an example, but without being there, without seeing a thing, she is assuming that she knows more than the child’s actual mother. That sounds like “sure…sure…sure…I don’t mind if you do things differently as long as you’re informed…but I’m not really actually goingto accept you making a different choice because you must be doing something wrong.”
Rigorous research in the 30’s……?? I think not.
“The argument here is that people can and will come to different choices, but we want to make sure they’re coming to it not because they’ve had zero support of live in a society that doesn’t support family, but because they read info and got to that conclusion themselves.”
It definitely seems like you are saying that some choices are inferior—because they are made in a context of zero support of family. Even if we “read info” and come to those conclusions, they are still apparently the same choices as the unsupported anti-family ones. I think your mission to be viewed as non-judgemental is a waste of time. Say what you think, share your views, but don’t get defensive if people get defensive. We can argue with assholes, society, and each other all at the same time. No one is going to want to join forces with you against the assholes/society if you are judging their choices by assuming they’re not choices or if they are, they are the choices made by victims of “society.”
To me, the most important thing is being in tune with your child as he/she grows and changes, following their lead, and forming your parenting approach through a balance of observation, research, instinct, personal experience, community and personal philosophy.
Yes! I love the scenario you gave, too. It made me laugh. Afraid to do anything for fear of judgment regardless which decision you make.
Kate – I, too had a c-section with my first and it wasn’t an emergency. I gave formula to my first as well, before establishing breastfeeding. I’m not ashamed to admit to any of these choices. I am, however, angry that I made these choices based on the little information given to me at the time and out of concern for my baby. I’m angry that the lactation consultant at the hospital told me to wait every three hours to pump in order to “build up my supply” so that baby could have my milk along with the formula that was really keeping her alive. It’s not the fact that I gave her formula that bothers me; it’s the fact that I was misinformed about breastfeeding.
I don’t think it is fair that we, as mothers, have to know what to ask or search for before getting an answer to the many questions we all face as first-time (or 2nd or 3rd time) mothers. No women should be judged on her choices because we don’t know why she made them. We can, however, try to make it easier for the next mother to have the full picture before making that choice.
I don’t expect everyone to make the same choices as me simply because no one else is in my situation. I do, however, want every mother to have the opportunity to choose freely and not out of misinformation or out of lack of support.
How do I avoid being an asshole? I ask! I would ask you to tell me your story. But there are tons of times as well that the people somehow feel attacked simply by being asked about their story. And that’s sad also. Because without the deffensive stories, without the honest and raw dialog we can’t find solutions to the problems that we as society face when it comes to raising our families.
Kate, I’m sorry in advance, I don’t want to make fun of you, but I kind of wish I had a pagan doula riding around on a unicorn while in the throes of my at-home waterbirth. Oh yeh, and virgin tears might have been nicer to sit in than the gunk (shock horror) that my poor husband had to clean up the next day. I honestly feel blessed that I was able to have the birth experience that I wanted (maybe a shorter labour would have been nice) and if you either chose or did not choose to have a C-section, well, its what happened. I’m sure your child is beautiful nonetheless. So please understand I’m not trying to be an arsehole or anything, I just really loved the imagery that your comment has conjured in my mind 🙂
Bahahaha! Water birth in virgin tears.. lmao..
But really, I did love my C-section, but it was because I didn’t feel stressed about having to be induced due to pre-ecclampsia. I had pre-ecclampsia because I was in a work environment that was stressful that, because I was/am salaried, never had scheduled breaks and was 100% on my feet. This work environment was this way because that’s acceptable in today’s society. The real problem is that we see the worker as a dollar amount, a cog in a machine, not as a vital organ in a living thing. A normal person doesn’t cut off a limb simply because it is not currently functional — maybe if it comes to light that it will never be functional or that it is harming other limbs then that would make sense. Likewise, a good company shouldn’t fire an employee because one year is tainted by pregnancy. This attitude is why the US now has an average employment time of just 4 years as opposed to Greece, Portugal and Germany where the average employment time is over a decade. When companies treat people like people and not like objects a lot of the problems behind these mommy wars will take care of themselves.
This is amazing. Also booby traps hah!
I think this article stirs up a great point at the end, but you’ve offered a grand entrance to a much bigger and more informative subject without follow-up of what you mean.
As a person who hasn’t had children, your article seems to be truncated. If I wasn’t already noticing these kinds of things in my own workplace I would probably have the following thoughts/questions: What do you mean society doesn’t support mothers? What do you mean people don’t have choices? What on earth are you talking about experts just trying to sell books? Aren’t they all experts??
It would go a long way to convince people you actually have an argument to stand on if you expanded on your argument. Because it’s not the mom’s and grandmothers and female co-workers you are trying to convince here. It’s the bosses, the fathers, the men who don’t actually have to leave their desks every hour to pump in an attempt to keep breastfeeding. It’s the CEO who wonders why we have so many women earning money but who aren’t actually billable because they are on maternity leave. It’s the female vice president of the company who self admittedly “lost her family” while chasing after success at work because “there was no way anyone could let her do both”.
Those are the people you need to direct your articles towards, and in so, expand on your argument. It’s a grand argument, but it got lost in your first 5 paragraphs and barely introduced again before the end of the article. I’d love to see a bunch more pieces and articles expanding on each one of the groups you name in your 6th paragraph.
I am educated. I had the beautiful home water birth, unicorn and pagan doula. All of it. Then she didn’t care to latch, belly sgill full of amniotic fluid. After a day they lose the insginct to suckle. Nipple covers became a way of life, along with amazing support from 3 lactation support groups. (Ironically I’m reading this post that was shared by a friend from la ldche league) Then she gained an ounce a month until month 5 when she just started losing weight. I worked hard until month seven, when I became a buyer of formula. She was seven months old and MAYBE ten pounds. So I guess I’m trying to say that I AM one of those people who gets insulted when I hear and read over and over again how AWFUL my choice was. I hate formula. I hid it in my grocery cart. I know how it’s obviously not as good as breastfeeding, but it was that or her slow starvation. With baby 2, milk supply coming out of my ears! But I will never again judge a formula buyer or feeder!
Jennifer, you should be pissed and offended! It’s wrong! But I think it’s a different problem. When someone is an asshole, it’s probably not limited to parenting, or comes from a place of deep insecurity on their end. They are wrong to treat you like that, but all the talk in the world isn’t going to change being an asshole (in my opinion). And if we focus on the assholes, we ignore the bigger problem if providing a supportive society for families.
Love it. Thank you. So important for people to realize there are situations that may result in different decisions, and that the mom might’ve tried her best and the last thing she needs is condemnation. She’s likely doing that enough on her own.
I agree! A discuss always needs to occur regarding our decisions about our child’s health. How would we know what options are out there if there wasn’t an open discussion? For me the mommy wars is more about the judgement and jealousy that comes from comparing our children and our parenting choices. I wrote a post about this on my blog. Great article though!
There are a lot of ways to educate without playing I to mommy war crap. You can educate people without judging them, being condescending, etc. if you can’t, the problem is with you.
Exactly! It’s one thing to evaluate and distribute information to people who are looking for it, and another to shove it down someone’s throat without knowing their story all because you think you have all the right answers. And the latter is what I think most mother’s are referring to when they make a call to end the mommy wars.
I think it takes having a really negative view of the human race to not trust that most mothers are only trying to do what is best for them and their families.
Pushing views (no matter how support by research, because research isn’t perfect and doesn’t account for all circumstances) without listening to women first only keeps the problems alive. People don’t want to listen to information that is given in a condescending way.
And how exactly are we to solve these problems with society (such as booby traps, parental leave issues, etc.) if we do not listen to find out what the issues really are first?
I love the article. We as moms need to realize that we don’t know ever thing that goes on behind close doors. I wasn’t able to BF because of a medical condition I had. At first I would isolate myself because I was so ashamed. I would hide the formula in my cart. I was so hard on myself. I spent more time obsessing over that then focusing on the wonderful things I was doing. My daughter and I did skin to skin most of the day. We co sleep and still do, our family is so child centered and I gave up my career as a nurse to be home full time with my baby. I was and am a great mom. I had no control over my medical condition that forced me to take medication to remain healthy. My family deservedva healthy mom and wife. I learned so much from that experiance most important not to judge by what I think is going on, because the truth is none of us know what goes on behind closed doors. And frankly it’s non of our business. I shouldnt have had to explain my medical condition to anyone just to justify why I was bottle feeding. At the time I did because I was a new mom and lacked confidence. Today I wouldnt think twice. We all have a story, a journey that we are all on together. Some have different views and thats ok. I believe we a moms wifes and human beings it is our job to support one another. Especially because we are all the first teacher our children have and to teach kindness, empathy, and compassion we must exhibit within ourselves and I feel that is how change begins. Lead by example snd the rest will follow
I think what’s dangerous and misguided is posts like this. Like the “I Promise Not To Judge You” post by the Badass Breastfeeder, and many other posts like them I’ve seen lately, this woman presents issues that remain controversial (often cleverly or accidentally mixed in with issues that have been neatly resolved by science, such as breast-is-best) as if there is a discrete answer, a set of clear and irrefutable date to which she has privileged access and some other poor, uneducated parents do not. These two posts exhibit what can be so totally off-putting about certain members of the so-called “crunchy” mom movement today: a thin veneer of tolerance and supportiveness that quickly scratches off to reveal mountains of (perhaps unconscious) self-righteousness and judgment, not to mention an uncanny ability to interpret controversial and difficult choices like co-sleeping and circumcision in a way that COMPLETELY ignores that these are still OPEN debates, with data and current, valid research supporting both sides.
To this blogger, there is no way someone’s choice to sleep-train or circumcise could be termed a “choice” because it is not the choice that she, in her vast knowledge and superiority, has made. If they knew what she knew (and there wasn’t some kind of extenuating circumstance), they would have made the correct “choice”. That’s just unreasonable. I follow the research on both of these issues very closely, and neither issue is resolved. People make choices based on the information they have, and someone making a choice different from yours doesn’t mean they have less information. What’s alarming is when a parenting choice is made by misusing and misinterpreting the available information, and that does happen a lot these days, but it’s definitely not what this blogger is talking about.
I find that “Mommy Wars”-type behavior is very rarely exhibited outright these days., in the form of someone accosting a mom in public and criticizing her behavior. It comes across in posts like this one, where someone presents their own choices with a truly astounding assumption of righteousness, blithely leaving out completely valid counterpoints. It may be unintentional on their part, but the lack of perspective I see in so many mommy blogs these days alarms me.
Dialogue between parents about what’s best for children (based on actual research, not the latest hype that studiously ignores half of the pertinent research) is not, and does not have to be, “Mommy Wars”. The kind of smug attitude so many mommy bloggers pour into their posts today—that is “Mommy Wars”, and ending it would go a great distance in making it possible for real dialogue to happen about parenting choices. If bloggers like this one acknowledged that alternative choices can also be valid choices, because the questions are not yet resolved, maybe moms wouldn’t feel so defensive and compelled to publicly validate or defend their parenting.
Sorry for the long rant, but posts like this seem to be such a huge part of the problem to me! It’s just a frustrating and polarizing attitude, and not helping any moms. Such condescension!
I wrote the following:
“Sleep training your 3 month old because you have to back at work at six weeks, switching to formula because your child has an undiagnosed tongue tie and you don’t have a lactation consultant on your medical plan and can’t afford one, or pushing your child to ‘self-settle’ when he isn’t ready because you are bombarded with false information about what you should be expecting from your child are not true choices. (You may do any of these things after tons of research and believing it’s best, and that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with, as many people disagree with co-sleeping or breastfeeding a toddler, but when you *don’t* have a real choice, it’s a problem.)”
I used those examples because they are stories I have heard first-hand running this site and because I haven’t heard of someone not sleep training and regretting it unless they were in a non-family-friendly situation, or breastfeeding because they felt they had no choice (though I’m totally open to the fact that people who have had those experiences are out there, but they haven’t come here to share). As I acknowledged, other moms make different decisions and they should be respected *even if I or others disagree*. I think it’s silly to say I have to *agree* with all choices people make and if that’s what you’re looking for and complaining about, then we will have to agree to disagree. But absolutely the decisions should be respected. Often I think people interpret what I’m saying as coming from a personal instead of from a public page point of view. When I say I share the research, I mean here. Not in person (unless asked). Here, people can come and go and read or not read as they like – there’s no judgment in the information, despite people having a real problem with it.
Then I think you need to get out of your bubble if you’ve never heard of people who have breastfed because they had no other choice. What about women who couldn’t afford to use formula and who couldn’t receive WIC? What do you think they do? If they have to come to you for you to acknowledge them, then you are very self absorbed. You don’t have to agree with choices that others have made, but you also don’t need to be the asshole you speak of in here. Make no mistake about it you are just as much of an asshole as the woman in the grocery store who looks down on a woman who’s buying formula because both you and that woman are making assumptions of lack of education. You’re looking for people to come here and say oh it’s okay for you to be an asshole because you’re writing to the public as a whole and not to an individual, but you are writing to an individual. You’ve said as much in your comment here where you say:
“I used those examples because they are stories I have heard first-hand running this site and because I haven’t heard of someone not sleep training and regretting it unless they were in a non-family-friendly situation, or breastfeeding because they felt they had no choice (though I’m totally open to the fact that people who have had those experiences are out there, but they haven’t come here to share).”
So you are writing to the individual who comes here and says I couldn’t breastfeed because of an undiagnosed tongue tie, I did sleep training at 3 months old because I had to go back to work, I can’t afford a lactation consultant. That’s who you’re writing to. And you’re saying it’s societies fault that all of that is the case. But society didn’t cause tongue tie and perhaps the woman wanted to go back to work. Not everyone wants their children around them constantly (this coming from a SAHM of 14 years). Maybe you think you’re covered because this is focused at the general public, but this is still an opinion piece and the opinion that you have expressed here is that you lack education if you don’t do what I do and that is the central nervous system of mom wars.
Read more: https://gku.flm.mybluehost.me/evolutionaryparenting.com/ending-the-mommy-wars/#ixzz2h9glL7Te
And here we hit an issue – I’m in Canada and WIC isn’t an issue. We do have people below poverty, of course, and lots of places helping them out. Absolutely perhaps someone had to breastfeed because they had no other option if in the US you can’t get WIC. And that’s equally a problem in society that we should focus on.
However, the cases I shared were people who were upset over their circumstances. They didn’t want to go back to work at 3 months, and though society didn’t give the baby a tongue tie, society can limit resources so that a mom doesn’t get it accurately diagnosed and dealt with. I agree that not everyone wants the same things, but why then, are we set on ignoring those for whom this is the reality?
Who says we’re set on ignoring that? I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but here there have been plenty of discussions about improving maternity leave. That’s not what your post is about though. You’re not making suggestions of how to fix these things, you’re addressing how people feel when you give your sanctimonious opinion on how you think the world should work and what women should do. You are making a lot of assumptions about why people get frustrated. Look, I am completely cool with all of the choices I made for my family. I have 4 children ranging in age from toddler to teen. I have done everything from 100% formula feed to 100% breastfeed. I have birthed two children naturally, one via c-section, and one vbac with a little pain meds. I have no problems with any of this stuff, but I do have a problem with people dictating how I should feel about these choices and telling me that I just wasn’t educated or didn’t have enough support. Because unless you were there you don’t know what education I had in any of the choices I made and what made me choose them. And that is why this post makes you just as big of an asshole as the woman in the grocery store who tells me not to feed my baby formula. It might even be worse though because you are very passive aggressive about it.
Where on earth did I say how you should feel? I didn’t. I acknowledged I might not agree with other people’s choices on a personal level, but that they should be respected when they are true choices. And I said true choices can look like anything. But many women don’t have true choices and we ought to fight that. And no I’m not making assumptions, but rather speaking about people who have talked about this endlessly. Just because it was a true choice for you doesn’t mean it was for everyone. Why do these people not matter?
Regarding fixing things, no I didn’t get into all of it here, but I have on this site. I have a download letter to send to reps in the USA to request longer maternity leave, I have suggested charities and groups to help moms out (one of which was formed in NZ after I suggested it). But sometimes, yes, I write about the problem.
Amen, sister!!!
Julia – wow, thank you for that great, thoughtful post. Tracy, it seems like you really mean well and are very passionate about making the world a better place. Maybe the feedback here can actually help you do it. It seems like people are being pretty reasonable (for Internet standards, which isn’t saying a lot, I admit!). Doesn’t seem like anyone is gunning for you just to be a troll or start a pointless fight. So if several people think this article sounds judgmental or self-righteous or condescending… maybe there’s something useful in our feedback. If you really want to change the world, we are among the people you have to communicate with for years and years to come.
You write, “There’s no judgment in the information.” But there is. My day job involves editing magazine articles and writing editorials for one of the nation’s 25 largest newspapers. The way we present information, the way we decide which bits of research we will present and which we will discard, all of these determine a mini worldview for each piece we write. When a person writes passionately in an Op-Ed manner, calling for change as you have done here, judgment is always in play.
“Often I think people interpret what I’m saying as coming from a personal instead of from a public page point of view…” You are writing a blog and you identify yourself as a parent. The voice/POV of your writing is very personal, even if in this piece you aren’t necessarily telling stories about particular incidents in your personal life. It’s natural that people will take it personally and will assume that you—with your unique voice as a personality and writer, with yourself and your child photographed at the end of your column—are a real person.
And I hope that you as a real person are doing OK given that you’re having to come in here and defend yourself all day. 🙂
Thank you. I do think we always learn from feedback even if it’s more frustrating right away 😉
Re personal versus page – what I meant was not that it wasn’t from a person, but that I’m not going up to people on the street and offering unsolicited advice. I write my opinions and reasons here, share the information I’ve read and when asked elaborate on why I interpreted it in that light. But it’s a page that is optional to come to. If someone is looking for information on sleep training, it may come up, along with many others that say it’s fine and does no harm. It’s one of many and shares a particular perspective. It’s not meant to be forced onto anyone. Does that explain better?
And yes, I know there’s judgment in op-ed pieces like this. Sorry, trying to answer everything I’m not as clear as I should be. But I mean that when I share information, the information isn’t judging. It just is. People may disagree with my take (I had a great discussion with a mom on sleep training over this and I shared my thought process on it in a piece here which helped her see where I was coming from and she took another route of interpretation which is totally respected), and that’s okay. But the information is still there however people want to weigh it.
Where I get frustrated with many of the responses is that they serve to mitigate a person who, for example, feels bad about having to use formula. It’s said they only feel bad because of “lactivists” when most I know feel bad because it’s something they truly wanted. Or a homebirth. Or not to sleep train. And when they feel awful and are met with “It’s fine – your choice is valid” and they don’t feel it was a “choice”, it’s a problem. Not because of the act, but because of the situation that led them there. Just as I agree no mom should be shamed for having a c-section, not breastfeeding, etc. But I see people that shame them as the assholes. I know some people have tried to claim I’m like that, and perhaps there’s a spot I missed where I said that, but I haven’t been able to find it.
To me, if you made your choices weighing everything and feel confident, where’s the problem? So you encounter an asshole? I do every day about some of my choices, but I never felt forced into a choice and so it doesn’t bother me. But a parent who hasn’t had that deserves our support and I would hope all of us who didn’t have to face that can accept the person’s feelings and fight for a better society.
I just want to say that it makes me sad to hear that women, good moms, felt ashamed to buy their babies formula and hid it in their carts. Nobody should feel like that. Ironically, if you feel that way, you are most likely the exact kind of mom who shouldn’t.
I do understand the goal of changing society, expectations, and the sharing of reliable and accurate information to help moms make informed decisions, and how the current state of affairs often blocks various aspects of that. However, I don’t think that is the same argument as the mommy wars issue, which is more traditionally a battle between moms who judge each other’s choices because they truly feel one way is better (i.e. working versus staying at home). It seems like you are suggesting that mommy wars is all because society does a poor job at supporting moms (and I agree, it does). But that’s different than what I’ve always felt ‘mommy wars’ represents. I am a working mom. I have an amazingly family friendly job. I am in late and home early (make up for it in the evening when the kids are sleeping). I pump at work twice per day and there are lactation rooms I can use. My employer is extra flexible and let me use my leave and work from home in ways that let me stay home with both my kids fully paid for 6 months. I KNOW this is unusual, but it shouldn’t be. Anyhow, I have a great career and a great set-up. I am not as focused as I was before kids, but I’m more efficient than I was given my added expertise and experience. I am happy now with my choice to work, despite a mini meltdown when my leave ended.
That said, I know there are moms out there who judge me because I work. There are working moms who judge those who stay at home. When it comes to things like this, if all else is equal and one is completely free to choose, then I just don’t see the point in judging at all. Kids of devoted working and stay at home moms turn out just fine and I honestly don’t think one way is better, as there are advantages to each.
Anyhow, I see your point, but I guess I don’t view that as mommy wars, but rather society’s lack of support for families (despite what our government likes to claim…).
I completely agree with you. When people make their own decisions and are free to make them, we don’t have a problem. People may disagree with a choice, but that’s part of human nature 🙂 Certainly no room to be an asshole though!
I would like to add an option most people ignore: allergies. My 15 month old has many allergies and is still on a hypoallergenic formula that’s special order only. Her pedi was actually letting her lose weight to push that I still try to breastfeed when I clearly didn’t want to and they denied her allergies. Her 3 month old brother now also gets formula. Could I have breastfed? Probably, but don’t want to. It is probably best since Lucy and I have crap diets since I eat to match her and she only has a handful of safe foods constantly getting smaller.
I agree with the point of this which is that we live in a society that doesn’t fully support and educate good parenting. I disagree with the thought that the only way to do this is to have mothers who think they are doing it a better way to tell other mothers that. What needs to happen is education before people become parents. I do think a lot of women need way more support than they have access to when it comes to breastfeeding but to say that they aren’t really making a choice is wrong. You just don’t like that a mother may choose to give her baby formula regardless of the reason. What ever the reason was it was that mothers choice. Or that a mother may choose to have a hospital birth and choose to listen to exactly what her doctor tells her to do. I think it’s presumptuous to assume these people did not have real choices because they weren’t fully informed. It’s presumptuous anytime one mother starts the “well did you try this, and you could try this…” line of discussion when it comes to breastfeeding. How do you know she hasn’t already? How do you know anything about her at all? Your questions alone are judgmental. Even asking the questions can be rude because you’re fishing for information to “enlighten” someone else. Why not present it in the this was my experience, if you have any questions let me know” or offer yourself to talk about it. But never never give unsolicited “advice” it is ALWAYS self righteous and self serving whether you feel it is well intentioned or not.
I think the difference here is that I mean sharing information in a forum like this site where people can search and leave. And I certainly don’t think other mothers should be telling people “how to do it” – I’m not sure where you got that???
I also was clear to say for some they are making a true choice and that’s fine and great (as I said). But, for example, over half of the women who set a breastfeeding goal don’t meet it and that’s a tragic set of circumstances, in my opinion.
The thing is, posts like this accomplish nothing towards the goals you say you are looking for. If you want better maternity leave, the way to do that is to lobby your government or start a petition drive to get it on a ballot initiative. If you want mothers to have access to donor milk, then contribute towards a charity that does that. What is NOT helpful is yet another of the endless Facebook posts that says ‘Let me tell you about the benefits of breastfeeding, co-sleeping, or the dangers of CIO or circumcision.’
A perfect example – I consider people who homebirth to almost insanely negligent, but I think it would be stupid and rude to make a Facebook post every time another baby died because some Ina Mae wannabe didn’t know what she was doing. From my perspective, the parents are playing Russian roulette with their babies life in order to get some idealized ‘birth experience’, but that’s their choice. They would almost certainly think ill of me for my choice to circumcise my son. But I’m not going to go bombard them with anti homebirth information unless they as me for my opinion on it. I doubt it would change their minds anyway – certainly, I wouldn’t have changed my mind about circumcising no matter what anybody said to me.
For me, I sort of sit on the sidelines and watch it all with bemusement. They’re not called the ‘Daddy wars’ and if there’s such a thing as ‘daddy guilt’, I certainly don’t feel it. Every major parenting decision I have made was the result of careful research and considerations on my status as a single man and thus when I make a choice, I’m confident in it. It makes me sad to see the anguish many women go through over not being able to breast feed and I really don’t understand it. Lacking breasts, I certainly never expected to feed my LO that way and while a few people suggested donor milk, I find the idea extremely creepy and unsafe. I also ignored the doctor who told me I ought not to room share with my baby. I know what works for me and I don’t need a raft of unsolicited advice.
But I have no expectation that the legions of lactivists, intactivists, elimination communicators and baby-wearers are going to shut up anytime soon. Because it’s not really about supporting other moms; it’s about validating their own choices as the Best Parent Ever. And, frankly, in some cases it’s just because they like to be mean.
You can access the maternity leave letter for longer times (US based as it has the lowest) here: https://gku.flm.mybluehost.me/evolutionaryparenting.com/downloads/
You can read about accessing donor milk and the network of places that support it here: https://gku.flm.mybluehost.me/evolutionaryparenting.com/so-youre-going-to-bottle-feed/
And yes, my choices of charities and donations reflect my beliefs.
If you feel no guilt over your choices, that’s wonderful – whatever they are – because it is a sign of well-researched choices. It’s what I hope all people have and why I’ve been clear that people’s true choices should be respected, but we need to ensure people have these choices.
Lobbying the government for better maternity leave won’t be effective if there isn’t a critical mass of citizens who actually want that. I don’t see a way to achieve that critical mass without spreading the word. Spreading the word involved informing people of the benefits of the changes you wish to see.
The problem is, folks like you who deny your judgmental attitudes toward others use education as a stick by which to beat others, and then claim that we deserve our beating. Not unlike an abusive partner, come to think of it.
You are saying educating other moms does not mean you’re engaging in mommy wars. The problem is that all these educational do-gooders have a sneaky tendency to move the goalposts. There is an underlying bias and belief that certain decisions are inherently never educated decisions. If you use formula, had a c-section, circumcised your baby, use a stroller, etc.–these things are ALWAYS assumed to be choices made due to lack of education.
It is folks like you who need to be educated. First, educated about the pedestal upon which you have put yourself. It exists. You’re standing on it. Other people are annoyed that you put yourself there and are shouting down at the rest of us.
Second, educate yourself about the science. The real, honest-to-goodness science. Breastfeeding makes no measurable difference in the developed world–not in IQ, not in weight, not in overall health. Further, you’re selling breastfeeding women a bill of goods. When I see women who killed themselves to breastfeed their babies to ward off allergies lamenting the need to fill Epi-Pen prescription after Epi-Pen prescription, it further cements in any thinking person’s head that the world is a hell of a lot more complex than lactivists such as yourself make it out to be. Not only is formula just as good as breastfeeding for many families, but it’s better for a lot of them too. But you will need a much more open mind than you presently have to understand this.
Third, educate yourself about feminism. “What would it be if we said anything goes and that using formula is just as good as breastfeeding regardless of the reason you used formula?” I’m sorry, but I do not want my children growing up in a world in which they need to study verbal self-defense in case of verbal assault by total strangers like you and your self-proclaimed fellow mommy educators for using their bodies the way they deem best. What does that say to our girls? That they are incapable of making choices without a paternalistic female misogynist looming over their shoulders, ensuring they’re doing it for all the “right” reasons? That they need a reason–stamped and approved by Evolutionary Parenting–to use their breasts one way or another? That they are not to be allowed control over their bodies and their minds? That their bodies, their lives, and their kids’ lives are to be deemed inferior because they added up the pros and cons and determined formula was just as good or better for them, their kids, and their families? I don’t want my daughter believing any of this crap and I don’t want my son to believe it either.
The hubris of this post is staggering. Perhaps you don’t see a need to end the mommy wars because you are enjoying your position as one of many subtle warmongers.
Clearly you haven’t read the piece in its entirety or the site which is fine. But a quick run-down…
1) Never argued those decisions were due to lack of education – EVER. In fact, acknowledged in several pieces here how many of them happen for many reasons. But I also know that sometimes they are made from a mom or dad not having the info and they voice their regret. If making sure parents can read all sides (yes, all, but I don’t need to share the mainstream views, a lot of people can do that), then parents can make that choice.
2) The argument about formula being just as good is about the last part “regardless of the reason”. It’s not just as good when a mother desperately wanted to breastfeed and didn’t have the support in place to do so. It’s just not. And I will never tell a mother who feels a loss over losing that that she should just suck it up, which is in essence what she’s being told to do when she’s just told “Well, formula is just as good.”
3) What so many forget is that this, like many others, is an open site. I don’t understand how people can feel guilt from it or anger over something you can walk away from. No one is forcing you to read any of it. But many seem to have issues over my writing of it. Very weird.
Yes, Tracy. Everyone who disagrees with you either didn’t read your post or we didn’t understand it. You are smarter, better read, and more educated than all of us, and if we just read a little bit closer, we could be as enlightened as you. Right.
You know what I think is weird? That you post things on your site for the public to read, but get upset when people disagree. Unless of course you just enjoy broadcasting from an echo chamber…
Lol. Yes, that’s it. I’m upset people disagree. Disagreement is fine, but some people are bringing up issues that are directly mentioned in the article so I believe it’s okay to ask for clarification. Or to discuss. I’m sorry – I didn’t realize I wasn’t supposed to reply to people who commented on something that I wrote. My bad.
Comment away. Just don’t be condescending and “Oh, you must not have read” or “You just don’t understand” remarks. It just makes you look petty, and gives the impression that you can’t address the substance of negative comments without getting huffy.
I believe I’ve dealt with the majority of comments here thoroughly. However, if someone is claiming I’m saying something I clearly didn’t, I’m going to either assume they didn’t read it or didn’t understand it. And not understanding can totally be because of something I said, but I’m not debating something that was already written in the post. Not with this many comments coming in.
I assure you, my reading comprehension skills are excellent. I did read the post, as well as others you have posted. I stand by my comments.
“1) Never argued those decisions were due to lack of education – EVER. In fact, acknowledged in several pieces here how many of them happen for many reasons. But I also know that sometimes they are made from a mom or dad not having the info and they voice their regret. If making sure parents can read all sides (yes, all, but I don’t need to share the mainstream views, a lot of people can do that), then parents can make that choice.”
So wait, you never argued that peoples’ decisions were due to a lack of education–“EVER”…and then in the next sentence you say that sometimes decisions are made by parents who don’t have the info. Maybe this is my aforementioned excellent comprehension skills tripping me up here, but you are contradicting yourself here, to put it mildly.
Furthermore, you also seem to believe that “sharing information” somehow doesn’t imply that the person doing the sharing feels the intended recipient doesn’t have and yet needs that information–a process that much of the rest of the world would call “education.” I find it weird that of all the points I made, you chose this as the first to harp on.
2) I agree that mothers who want to breastfeed should have access to appropriate resources to do so. Further, as someone who wished to breastfeed her first and found that her particular health situation made it impossible, I agree with you that it is vastly inappropriate and cruel to tell someone to just suck it up and not treat that as a loss. It is a loss. A very painful one. It is made all the more painful by the cult of “breast or bust” that is the most vocal in the parenting world right now.
I don’t wear my research on my forehead, and even if I put “I researched the issue and know that formula is best for my family” in my public Facebook profile, I still know that plenty of do-gooders in the same vein as yourself will attempt to “share information” about how I’m a child-abusing moron who has willfully and gleefully condemned her children to a lifetime of diabetes, obesity, asthma, and ugliness, all because of my selfish drive to avoid a crippling disease. I should suck it up and “do what’s best.” They will probably cite things like your article here, as justification for sharing information. It’s not their fault if I’m upset by what they say, of course! It’s not perpetuating mommy wars! A formula-feeding, epidural-loving mom like me can never be on the noble side of confronting a bully–no, we were doomed to be labeled “defensive” for merely sticking up for ourselves.
3) Ah yes, the whole “if you don’t like it, why are you here?” bit, which I frequently see lactivists who realize their militancy use as an excuse to continue being militants. To continue my analogy from earlier–militant lactivism is rather like an abusive relationship. If you stick around, that must mean you like being beaten, and think you deserve it, right?
Or, how about another analogy? Let’s say a person at your local park got up and started on a racist, sexist, homophobic rant. Immediately, folks jumped in to shut that person down. Why? They could just leave, after all. Why would they feel anger over it? Weird, right? No one’s forcing them to stay!
No lack of understanding on my part, as I’ve run into plenty of your type. Have a good one.
1) My comment was in response to the first part you said that they were “always” due to lack of education – that was what I was saying I never said. Yes, sometimes it is, but I was clear that it was not “always”. As for sharing information, I am speaking about on a page here – not to a person, but on a page where people can read it or not. It’s up to them if it becomes part of what they read before making a decision. Very different than going up to individuals and offering education that isn’t asked for.
2) There are asshole lactivists and as I said in this piece – it’s an asshole problem. Do you think the bid to end mommy wars is going to change them?
3) So you’re comparing a piece that may disagree with certain true choices but that they deserve respect, says we need to move our efforts to support families, and acknowledges that many people aren’t making true choices because of this lack of support as equivalent to racism, sexism, and homophobia. I’m sure the people that have endured that type of oppression appreciate you comparing your situation as a formula mom to their experiences.
The world would be a much better place if people would learn to butt out and mind their own business. Sadly, the mommy wars will continue as long as people like you think that their way is the only correct way to parent.
Love and light!
– A Conscientious Objector
Could you please point out there I said only my way was correct???
Brilliant post! So well written.
So, this article presupposes that everyone who doesn’t breastfeed or co sleep, started out wanting to. Do you believe this? What about spanking? Do you honestly think, that all, most or even a large number of parents who spank, started out against spanking but, gave in because of societal pressures?
I think this article is very disingenuous. I think your position is disingenuous.
What do you say about mommies who choose formula without regret? What about parents who believe in spanking or baby sleeping in his crib?
None of anything you’ve said applies to the majority of parents. Parents who are mostly OK with their choices and don’t want to argue with other mothers about HOW they arrived at their parenting practices.
The major difference between a parent like you and one like the rest of us, most of us is, I actually do not care how you choose to raise your children. As long as there are vocal women like you, supposing you know why another mother has made a certain choice OR that it is any of your business, there will most certainly be “mommy wars.”
Choice is about knowing your options. Most parents spank, choose formula or breast, circumcise, or whatever the issue is *because it’s how they saw it done around them,* NOT because they were handed two stacks of research papers and told, “read these and make your decision.”
When someone writes blog posts, or when a friend talks to another friend, enlightening someone that, “hey, there actually are other options, have you considered XYZ?” that is INCREASING choice. Even if it makes the person uncomfortable or confused at first.
In my case, I’d never even considered that spanking could be harmful. I was spanked. I grew up in a culture where children were spanked. I was told it was a good thing. It wasn’t until a facebook friend posted an article about spanking being child abuse, that I was compelled to do some more research to decide for myself… I just couldn’t fathom how anyone could parent without spanking! But I read about other approaches that claimed to be effective as well. So, once I knew the options, THAT’S when I had the choice. Before, it was just culturally imposed upon me, disguised as a “choice.” I THOUGHT I “wanted” to spank before, but after some uncomfortable research, I changed my mind. Was the person who suggested that spanking is child abuse being judgemental? Maybe. You know what? The culture in which I was raised said that parents who don’t spank are lenient and lazy… that’s judgemental too. In any case, the article (and subsequent research) opened my eyes to another possibility, though, and I am grateful.
If nobody were bold enough to speak out and say “there’s another way,” we’d all just continue in our cultural bubbles. It’s what psychology calls a “forced choice.”
As the author said, if the mother really did make a real choice (which means, she looked over information on both sides and decided what was her preference), there’s no problem. If the mother really does have no regret, no problem. Let the voices wail around her; she knows what she wants. Who cares what anyone else says? Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that others don’t appreciate it. If you don’t like what someone writes on their website, close the page.
Where does the author say that this is “her business” how you raise your child? She’s just saying that nobody should be shamed for bringing up information that may conflict with someone’s lifestyle, as long as they aren’t being an asshole about it.
Thank you – sometimes I feel others can speak much more clearly than I about what I write 🙂
I love your example of spanking – it’s so true that our culture has a massive influence on what we believe to be normal and the inherent views on certain practices because of that influence.
just FYI — i do actually like research and studies and scientific papers and all that fun stuff. much of it shows that if you’re in a culture where spanking is the norm, then if you get spanked, it’s basically not going to affect your life, or possibly affect it positively. if you’re in a culture where people don’t spank, then being spanked is more likely to have a negative effect.
these findings look at spanking, not at actual abuse / hitting in anger / stuff like that.
OK this has nothing to do with the conversation here! just thought it made sense… “what we believe to be normal” makes a huge difference to our kids.
http://www.examiner.com/article/new-research-suggests-that-never-spanking-might-be-worse-for-kids-than-spanking-them
I agree – I’ve done a piece on the research on spanking and there were subcultural differences!
Exactly! Thank you for *reading* the article and not just being ready to comment. This sums up the points really well!
So, are you saying that you make parenting choices based on a “two stacks of research papers?” Because, that is the example you gave for how one makes an informed parenting choice.
I’m gonna go to go out on a limb and say you don’t. I mean, I hope you don’t. But, seriously if you do, I’d like to offer some “when you know better, you do better” advice. Sister! Chill the f*ck out. Parent how it feels good to you. Stop worrying about what the research says. You’re probably doing a fine job. Get a hobby completely unrelated to your children and connect with the human you used to be, before you began reading research papers before wiping up poopie diapers.
You also, said you thoughtful most parents made choices because that’s what they saw being done. You said that, right? Well, here is my second piece of well meaning “mama to mama” insight. This is the most important.
Stop. Worrying. About. What. Other. Women. Are. Doing.
Stop comparing your choices to other women’s choices. Stop inferring how they arrived at their decisions. It’s none of your business. I think it’s batty that you implied that reading two research papers to decide on a parenting decision.
Some mothers feeling entitled to judge, comment, remark or have any kind of say in what other mothers do with their children, is what keeps the Mommy War machine going. I honestly don’t blame the media or anyone else. It’s you “well meaning mommies” who want to educate your friends because you’re convinced they made bad choices without all the info.
This mentality is keeping the war machine going.
Naima, I was responding with an argument placed in a certain context. I used hyperbole to get my point across.
Yes. Ideally, all decisions would be 100% backed by solid, irrefutable, scientifically-unable-to-be-falsified-so-far evidence. Ideally, all of us would know ALL of our options and have the time to delve into all of them and plan out the contingencies of each one and weigh how it would affect our lives and the lives of those we love. Yes. That would be a fully informed choice. Realistically, of course that doesn’t happen. Not at my house, not at anyone’s house. We do the best we can.
However, I think it’s batty to say that what research says should have NO part in our decisions, though! Really? You’re not going to research major medical decisions, or what schools are available in your district, or which medical specialist you entrust your family to, or anything? You don’t think that people should care, if they’re blindly doing something that is terribly destructive, and all the evidence clearly shows that it is? You’re going to close your eyes and just let your raw feelings guide you on everything, with no input from the frontal lobes of our civilization? Do you just believe objectivity is impossible, or is it just not really on your radar? Not that it’s my business. I’m just really surprised by your dismissive statements about research.
You say I’m “worrying about others’ choices,” when I was just observing how humans in general function. My comment was a direct answer to your question: “Do you honestly think, that all, most or even a large number of parents who spank, started out against spanking but, gave in because of societal pressures?”
Culture, by its very definition, is about doing and thinking what others around us are doing and thinking. All of us are socio-cultural creatures, by very nature of being human. Sometimes that is great, sometimes it’s not. I think it’s great to go with the flow when you need to. And it’s great to question your culture from time to time and choose to go against it because you feel (or evidence or research tells you) that the culture is wrong. “Parent how it feels good to you”–is that feel-good feeling one gets from parenting a certain way really just based on the affirmation from the culture, or is it based on the voice inside of one’s heart? Only by being aware of the real choices can one really know for sure.
The opposite of choice is slavery. (Again, resorting to hyperbole here, to make my point.) Even though it makes us work a little harder, or have to go through the trauma of possibly separating from parts of our culture, I do believe choice is better than slavery in most cases. It helps us evolve.
Thanks for the advice. No comment on the irony that you are giving me unsolicited advice basically telling me not to give unsolicited advice to others, or that you assume I have no hobbies while telling me it’s impossible to know anything about another mom’s life choices. 🙂 Ah, Life. It’s impossible to avoid paradox.
My giving you “advice” was meant to be cheeky and ironic. That’s why I put “when you know better you do better” “well meaning mama” in quotation marks. But, how astute of you to recognize irony. Pat yourself on the back, for me when you’re done reading my comment, OK?
Also, hyperbole is lame. You seem smart, so you can probably do better than that. Try again. I’ll come back when you’re ready.
And since you know nothing about me, I’ll tell you no, I don’t research parenting shit. I parent like its one of the many things I got going on. At least I try to. My goal is to not be a douchey obsessive parent. That’s my parenting style. And when the crazy neurotic voice tries to tell me I should be more maniac and less chill about being a mother, I reread articles like this. It helps me realize I have a choice. I don’t have to be a crazy person obsessed with parenting. I can send my kid to the school closest to our and take him to doctor when he’s sick and not go apeshit trying to figure out if I’m doing it right.
Mostly happy, healthy polite kid? Then I’m ok. F*ck it. People are raising kids in Syria, right now, dude. With war as a backdrop. I refuse to lose my mind over all thIs crazy. CTFU is my motto.
And when he’s grown, no one will care if he slept in my bed or if he got a bottle. He will just be a nice normal person. Probably? Hopefully, in part because his mother didn’t lose her mind trying to be the best parent, ever.
And I’m going to get personal here and tell you I grew up in a home with violence and drugs and abuse. So, I know that just NOT having that type of shit in my home, with my son, means I’m doing a good job. I don’t need to read a ton of parenting books to know validate my choices. Besides, I’m pretty sure people like you can read them for me and tell me what I’m doing wrong.
@Naima: [breathing heavily through mask] Join me on the dark side! Together we can worry obsessively about EVERYTHING parent-related! You know it’s in you. I can feel it. Resistance is futile!
🙂
Actually there’s research that over half of women who wanted to breastfeed ran into problems and ended up switching – women who did start out wanting to. Of course that doesn’t assume all women wanted to, of course not, but a *majority* of women who want to breastfeed are running into systematic problems and that’s something worth discussing. Although it seems many people who have made a different choice can’t fathom that a woman would not choose formula, or at least based on the comment here. Co-sleeping too, I have lots of people on EP who didn’t do it because of others telling them not to – many eventually did try it with later children after doing more research and looking into what worked for them. So yes. As to spanking, I don’t know, but I know there is a lot of research about the risks associated with spanking that many people seem totally unaware of. So I share.
What about the people who choose formula without regret? Who believe in spanking and cribs? Why are they feeling upset? If you made a decision that you’re comfortable with, why do you need everyone to agree with it? I’ve already said it should be respected, so all I can assume is that you require agreement. And why, because the decision was without regret for you, is it impossible to consider the women for whom the decision was made with regret?
As for your idea about the majority of parents – in breastfeeding alone, you would be incorrect. I would agree they don’t want to argue, but neither do I. I want to find out why if it wasn’t without regret and work to change things so others moms don’t end up there. Nothing to change for those who have decisions without regret…
Finally, as for you not caring, I find that sad. I do care because I hope all parents make their choices based on true choice and I get emails regularly from parents who don’t. So I care. Whether I agree with a choice or not, I hope parents come to it by their own accord and not because they felt they had no other choice. If you don’t care about that, fine, but yes, I will think that’s sad.
Please don’t even try to say you know how everyone feels.
I chose formula the second time around with anti-regret, in that I regret I didn’t choose it from the start with my firstborn. I don’t “believe in” cribs in the sense that I have one, it exists, I whack my elbows into it occasionally, and it has a nifty drawer underneath to store the kids’ sheets. I “believe in” doing whatever the hell I can to get everyone some sleep. I’m not upset about someone else’s decision to co-sleep/sleep in a hammock/sleep in a chair/sleep upside-down/sleep with their 17 children/sleep alone.
You’ve made a crucial logical error in your thinking here–the idea that by disagreeing with you, that means we’re upset. I suppose this would make sense to you if, as I suspect, you come at things from a purely emotional angle. But many of us don’t. It’s why someone who might make the exact same parenting decisions as you might still disagree with this article. What I disagree with–on an intellectual level–is the underlying bias upon which your entire article and many of your comments are written. There is a value judgment on your part that formula, cribs, etc. are inferior decisions, and that the world would be “shit” if people didn’t realize that. I disagree with this article because of your premise that there is a need to “share information” with those who don’t do things the way you do, because of your inherent assumption that those things are inferior to your way, and that that somehow does not perpetuate the “mommy wars,” which are basically moms “sharing information” with others to prove themselves superior.
And that’s it. No emotion required. You have written logical fallacies and folks called you on it. The interesting question is, why does that upset YOU? After all, you chose to write this and make it public!
Where did I say I know how “everyone” feels?
The “shit” comment here is taken out of context because it refers to a world in which we assume all choice is true choice and stop fighting to change a society that is not family-friendly. Very different than saying everyone must realize certain ideas are “shit” which was never said. As for the idea of a value-judgement, I already said I might personally disagree with someone’s choice, but that it should be respected. I’m afraid I can’t give you any better than that, just as many people disagree about things like co-sleeping or nursing older toddlers.
Now again, the issue that seems to come up from you regularly is the idea of “sharing information”. As I’ve said before, that was in there from the POV of the page, not a personal one. No I don’t advocate going up to people to share random information. If people ask for it, provide. If not, don’t. But part of having access to information is having places where it is. I write here and have opinion pieces like this and research-based pieces elsewhere. I still get people complaining that the other pieces contribute to the mommy wars by sharing information. Suggestions that we should just stop talking about it and just support each other. That is where this comes from.
As for being upset – no. Overwhelmed at times with trying to keep up on responses? Absolutely.
It seems to be that you’re implying that you’re motivated by the fact that there are people who were unable to …”home birth” “breastfeed” “organic” home-made baby food” etc and live with regret. Where do you think this regret really comes from? Do you think it comes from a missed ideal or the pressure and guilt that others…yes, society…is heaping on them that if they aren’t doing “……” then they’re not doing the right thing for their child. They must be failures as mom because what mom doesn’t do the perfect thing for their child and you must know that the perfect thing to do is “……..”
Ending the mommy wars is huge! Breast-fed vs. bottle fed? Cosleeping vs. in a crib? Working mom vs stay at home mom? Is that what determines whether your child is happy and healthy? Are you telling me that if your child is bottle fed, in a crib, taken care of loving grandparents or in with a sitter that you researched and checked out with your life….then that child will be unhappy and unhealthy? No? Then what do you care?
If you can’t mind your own business and feel the need to keep shoving your ways down someone’s throat you’re not being very supportive of families.
Honestly curious – how is writing on a site that no one is forced to view “shoving [my] ways down someone’s throat”?
Tracy, you published your opinions publicly. You became part of the public conversation instantly. You could have made this post in a private context, like a discussion group, or password-protected it. You could have your blog posts be non-searchable by search engines (the file is called norobots.txt). Instead, you chose to publish it out in the world.
There’s some responsibility involved with that role. Standing on a soapbox in the park *is* a form of shoving your ways down someone’s throat. Blogging is, too. Anyone interested in parenting issues may come across a link to this article. I got here via a Facebook link by someone who liked your post.
Once we are here, we will probably read what we find. We may react to it. It’s naive and/or really, really disingenuous to pretend you don’t know this…especially given that you disapprove of other people and entities shoving other information and opinions down people’s throats (e.g. lactation info).
Maybe you don’t like the phrase “shoving…throat,” but I see the commenter’s point.
People walking through a park don’t have much of a choice, but to hear the wailings of a crazy-eyed guy on a soapbox in the park. People on the web have complete freedom to close tabs whenever they wish.
Expressing an opinion publicly is not “shoving.” Expressing opinions with strong feeling is not “shoving” either. Wanting to get a reaction is not “shoving.” The word “shoving” implies force, which implies that the recipient(s) of the shove don’t have much ability to control what happens to them. This doesn’t apply on a personally-run, completely-voluntary-to-visit website. If someone doesn’t like what this website says, there are lots of other websites out there that can tell them things they do like.
Your argument here is basically:
“Your blog is able to be seen publicly; therefore, you should not write things on it that people don’t want to read.”
That’s a non-sequitur. Do you see how illogical that is?
Stop being so touchy, people.
And I need add nothing to that 🙂
I totally agree with this article, but I see lots of people getting upset over it, and I think it might be about not agreeing on the definition of the core term.
The author is saying that “Mommy Wars” means–not all parenting choices are equal, and people should be allowed to talk about different choices, even disagree with each other, in a respectful way, with the end goal of giving people real choices.
Many people are understanding “Mommy Wars” to mean–when one mom condemns and insults another without any attempt to understand her situation.
Obviously, very different definitions!
The readers who are getting upset seem to be jumping to conclusions about the author’s intent. Read carefully:
“At this stage of trying to get everyone to say all parenting acts are equally good, you are not only calling for the cessation of sharing information, but to stop fighting for a society that should enable families to make true choices.”
Is anyone against sharing information in a respectful way? Raise your hand.
Yes, very true, I think some people are taking issue there. It’s why I separated what, for me, amounts to the asshole issue.
I do though feel that some people are actually against the idea that we question the why of any person’s choice and accept that the choice was a “true choice” all the time. And that’s an area I will have to disagree with. And then some people feel that I shouldn’t be writing any of this – the co-sleeping, breastfeeding, birth, etc. information because it clearly comes from me who has an opinion (though I wonder if they have a problem with the mainstream shares that align with their view).
Tracy, you start with the assumption that your choices are “educated” and based on “research,” but in reality they are not. Many people who are ACTUALLY educated (that is they have advanced degrees in science, medicine, psychology, statistics, etc.) do not agree with your assessment of current research.
The sad fact is that “natural” parenting types live in an “alternate world of internal legitimacy” just like creationists and climate deniers do. Those people also consider themselves “educated” and believe they’ve done “research” but because they’ve only done so within the echo chamber of the natural parenting community, which has “journals,” conferences and “credentials” that aren’t recognized by anyone outside the community, they generally have no idea that most of what they fervently believe is factually false.
I dare say that if you knew what people with PhDs, and MDs know, you would not have made the choices that you did, and you certainly would not be claiming the superiority of your choices.
The ultimate irony is that you, who are not educated and have not done research, are chastising women who make different choices even when those women have far more education and familiarity with the research literature than you do.
How does this have anything to do with the article? Did you even read it? She clearly said, “You may do any of these things after tons of research and believing it’s best, and that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with…”
Amy,
Yes, my advanced degrees in psychology (M.A., and Ph.D. candidate who is in the final stages) and statistics (having completed what our department offers as a type of “minor” during my graduate degree and having served as a statistical consultant for other professors and an educational think tank) have led me astray. And oddly I have several professors who I am in contact with, do research with, and who feel the same as I do about the assessment of current research on myriad topics. Take birth, for example, a topic I know you feel very strongly about. I made my decision to say homebirth should be supported based on medical literature around the world (not just in the USA). Is it always safe? No. Is it inherently unsafe? Not based on the research. Of course, one caveat is that one needs to look at the system which is in place to see the degree of safety afforded to it. I am in Canada with an integrated system and the large studies examining the safety of planned homebirth for low-risk pregnancies supports it as a safe choice. Does that research extend around the world? No, different systems means different outcomes. But unlike you, I realize this speaks to the system, not the act itself, and would hope countries can adapt to include options that support homebirth for women who choose it in order to make it as safe as it is here.
I also certainly don’t “chastise” women who make different choices (unless we count writing about things like breastfeeding or homebirth or co-sleeping as “chastising”). I make no bones about my own position, but I expect people who have done their research and made their decisions to feel comfortable enough with a different view being shared in an open forum that they either move on from it or read, dismiss, and walk away. Just as I choose to ignore your page after seeing what it is you promote and having done the research myself. What you seem to have a problem with is accepting that there are people who have made your “choices” and regret them. People who made them, did more research or endured negative outcomes, and changed views. Because of this, the idea that a formula feeding mom may have a story instead of a choice seems to piss you off or try to blame others for her feeling that way, when in fact, a mother can just feel that way without anyone forcing it. (And I acknowledge people will have tried, for example, co-sleeping and it didn’t work for them and they tried something else. That’s okay and in fact, I’ve written on considerations people may want to look at if even considering co-sleeping. As I’ve said many times in many places, the same things will not work for everyone.)
Finally, I do find it rather hilarious that you speak of chastising different choices when you state that only your choices are valid (i.e., I wouldn’t make the choices I did if I knew what people with PhDs and MDs know). I happen to know many MDs and PhDs who disagree with your assessment of the breastfeeding literature and birth literature (the only two topics I’ve seen your writing on). You could claim you have read the literature one way and we disagree on interpretation, but your take is neither an absolute nor necessarily correct. But by uttering the one sentence you’re trying to claim I am guilty of, you have shown that it is you who has to feel superior to other parents and who believes only their way can be correct.
Cheers,
Tracy
Dr. Amy, you are absolutely off the mark with this one. As it turns out, I am familiar among a community of MDs and PhDs, and every single one of them not only “allows” my choices to breastfeed, babywear, co-sleep, and other “crunchy” lifestyle choices, but they encourage them and PRACTICE them.
I think it is you who lives in some alternate world of research. I think it is you who needs to expand your horizons. I am most definitely sure you are a smart woman, but your attitude and willingness to just throw your weight around because of some initials behind your name are downright dangerous.
If you don’t like our “crunchy” community, then stay out of it. I am always ecstatic to entertain research, debate, and question of my choices, but your condescending tone and lack of any evidence to back what you say is offensive.
Please help me understand, Amy Tuteur, MD. What I’ve gathered from your reply is that, because I do not have an M.D. or a Ph.D. behind my name, I am not qualified to make decisions about what’s best for my family. Please clarify if I am mistaken.
Having an MD or PhD does not make someone an expert on breastfeeding literature. That said, I do have a PhD in epidemiology and have worked closely with researchers at the CDC who are experts on this topic and publish the studies and literature that YOU claim to read. They would most certainly argue with you that breastfeeding is not beneficial at the public health level. There are so many positive outcomes associated with breastfeeding that it really isn’t even a debate at all among the medical community. The debate is if formula feeding is harmful. No, it probably isn’t in any major way. But, that’s not the same as saying it’s just as good, because it isn’t, and the research proves that.
I think some of the backlash on this is misunderstanding the point. I agree information and support needs to be made available to all women and that a lot of women don’t seek the info because they might not even be aware there is an alternate way of thinking when it comes to sleeping habits, feeding, birth itself.
However, I think you’re losing people when you’re associating this with “mommy wars” because while you say…people acting as though their way is the best way is an asshole issue and not a mommy war issue, I think you’re whole interpretation of the mommy wars is off. That’s why there is so much disagreement. I think we can all agree everyone should have the opportunity to make the best most informed decisions and have as much support in those decisions as possible without judgement.
But that mommy war to me is the asshole issue. It shouldn’t be a war where we are working against each other. The terminology is inappropriate for the point I think you’re trying to make.
The title of this is wrong. The mommy wars do need to end.
I agree, “war” is a bad analogy. I think, though, that people try to conflate any kind of disagreement as being automatically “war,” which is a way to try to discredit the person doing the disagreeing. You see it happen all the time in the media. Two people present different opinions, and someone says, “oh these mommy wars. Why can’t everyone just support whatever choice another person makes?” That’s what needs to stop. We can disagree–even strongly–without warring. But disagreements are an important part of societal progress!
My thought on this, though, is that if it’s an asshole issue, why are we limiting it to moms? And do we think all the rhetoric and saying it’s wrong to be an asshole will change things? I don’t, and thus I question the validity of a campaign that focuses on trying to change assholic behaviour instead of working to change the system people find themselves in.
I don’t really understand this comment. You used the term asshole, I personally think that too is the wrong word. Judgmental and self-righteous maybe. And yes I think saying it’s wrong to be that way to another person is necessary. And it’s limited to moms because I personally don’t get this behavior coming from Dads or anyone else frankly other than other mothers. Women frankly are always more critical of each other, especially when it comes to parenting. I agree with you when you say we should care how children are raised, in the fact that we want children to be surrounded by love, and nurtured for the best possible outcomes. However, I disagree with the fact that we can’t be supportive of each other without judgement. Like I’ve said before there is a way of getting the information out there without making mothers feel like they are doing a bad job. This (whether you feel you are truly saying this or not) is what people hear when you say I will not support a mother who chooses to CIO, which is basically what you said in your “I don’t do guilt” article right? Who’s campaigning against assholes instead of trying to change the system? That’s exactly what I’m saying we should do, change the system, not attack on an individual basis. One of the best examples of this is the “breast is best” campaign…while its not perfect it is trying to change the awareness of formula vs breast milk. HOWEVER, the reality is some people will need to use formula whatever their reasons are and those mothers should not live in communities where they feel the need to hide the formula in the shopping cart or feel the weight of eyes on them when they bust out the water and powdered formula in public. When I hear Mommy War that’s I think and feel. The word war in itself conjures the concept of good vs evil, right vs wrong…that DOES need to end. At a certain level other people’s parenting is not up for your or my debate.
What I said in the guilt article was that I can not support a choice, but still support the person. Which means I can absolutely support a mom who does CIO while still not supporting the act of CIO. This is where I feel we get into the idea of needing people to agree instead of just accept.
As for campaigning against assholes, I would ask the people who are on about the mommy wars (a term I actually quite agree with you on, but didn’t coin so use, perhaps inappropriately). Most of the people I’ve encountered have no interest in fighting booby traps or working for longer mat leave, etc., but rather they just want everyone to agree all choices are equal.
Take the breast example you use – I too have written on the benefits of breastfeeding as being normal (not best) but also written that for an individual family, the choice of formula can be superior. Of course, my big push is that women should have the 3rd alternative of donor milk and as such I advocate for and promote places that collect and share donor milk for those moms who are interested.
I think overall we agree, but you feel differently about what the mommy wars entail. Or at least that’s what I’m reading so please correct me if I’m wrong.
Actually, Martha, I think the article does a splendid job of characterizing those who want to end the Mommy Wars. Oftentimes those who allegedly want to end the Mommy Wars believe, as you say, that some people “use information to make sweeping judgments against individuals”. I do not agree.
From a health standpoint, breastfeeding is preferred over formula feeding. I wouldn’t call that my personal opinion, so much as I would call it an established fact.
Formula is not “perfectly safe”. If it were, then how could breastfeeding be better? Formula is relatively safe, it is quite safe, but it is known to have measurable health risks compared to breastfeeding and therefore is not “perfectly” safe.
The above sentences are information. Any perception of “sweeping judgments” based on the information is 100% inference.
Many people who want to end the Mommy Wars want to end the sharing of information because they believe, as you do, that sharing information that contradicts existing personal beliefs is a personal attack.
I think this article has shined a clear light on the issue. Those against the Mommy Wars are against the sharing of information which suggests breastfeeding is important because that information makes them uncomfortable.
The problem with this article is that it presents a false characterization of those who would like to end the “mommy wars”. The author is wrong to suggest that either we must assertively promote certain parenting styles or else we must regard all parenting choices as equal. Nobody is suggesting that we, say, censor articles that report on scientific studies that look at whether breastfeeding or formula are generally healthier. But to use information that is general to make sweeping judgement against individuals – individuals who have a number of confounding factors that will influence their personal choices – that is what is wrong. We can say that breastfeeding is generally superior to formula feeding, and at the same time admit that formula feeding is a perfectly safe and viable alternative for mothers who have personal reasons for not choosing breastfeeding. I had my damn dentist ask me if I was breastfeeding my baby. When I answered yes, he commended me for that, but it was still weird and offensive. What if I wasn’t? Would he have taken a judgement attitude? Would he have started preaching the gospel of breastfeeding without knowing my personal reasons for choosing how to feed my child? That sort of shit has to stop.
Also, my idea of a society that supports families has nothing to do with breastfeeding, spanking, or anything else you seem to be concerned with. We need affordable, universal health care, subsidized childcare, quality schools, and labor laws that allow families to balance work and family life. That’s how society can support families. Personal choices about how to discipline one’s children (within reason – obviously there is a line that can be crossed into actual physical abuse) or whether to formula or breastfeed are nobody’s fucking business, not because all choices are “equal” but because all of those kinds of choices are safe and legitimate enough and will vary based on personal circumstances.
Absolutely, but to think that health care, subsidized child care, school, and labour laws (and maternity leave) don’t influence the degree to which we have choice is naive. Breastfeeding is intricately linked to maternity leave and labour laws that allow moms freedom to pump. This is where the idea of having a “true” choice versus a truncated one comes into play and why assuming people made true choices is often false. This is the type of distinction I’m speaking of.
The polite thing would be to have a dialog about what went into the choice before tryng to change someone else’s ways. That person you’re trying to educate that’s getting hostile might have a very good reason. I get a lot of this kind of enthusiastic info-dumping from other parents who see me using a baby leash with my toddler. I’m really tired of having to explain every time (not that any of them have ever asked why) that I have a significant vision disability and need a tactile measurement of her distance from me; sometimes I just say “fuck off, asshole.”
Of course you should have a dialogue on a personal level! I have never suggested otherwise! My comment about sharing information was on the site here, not in person. I can’t know every individual circumstance when I write about what I promote. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
You may know people who disagree with me, but you must certainly know that my positions are mainstream within the obstetric and scientific communities while yours are not.
Since you are studying psychology, you may wish to do a bit of extra research on passive-aggressiveness. You wrote an incredibly obnoxious, self-aggrandizing piece demeaning women who make different choices than you do (as a variety of commentors have pointed out here and on other websites where your post is being discussed) and now you piously assert that you had no intention to hurt others.
I was once told by a psychiatry professor that you should always pay attention to your gut reaction to people: if someone comes across as seeming like they are trying to make you feel bad, they are probably trying to make you feel bad.
A lot of women have responded very negatively to your piece and perceive that you are trying to make them feel bad, even though you have approached it a very passive-aggressive way. You could learn from this experience, or you could put up a wall of denial to reject it — your choice.
One thing is certain. You are not an expert in parenting choices; you lack the relevant education and training in medicine, obstetrics and pediatrics. Therefore, you have no business passing yourself off as someone who is “educated” and whose choices are the standard against which all other women must measure theirs.
I take all comments under consideration. I also don’t view the mainstream as inherently being equal to “right” – look at history for the flaw in that assumption. I also fail to understand how one needs training in medicine, obstetrics, and pediatrics to be a parenting expert – before it was just higher education (which I still disagree with, I know many people who have read and understood the literature without advanced degrees). I thought that made you a doctor, qualified in certain disciplines. I also never said any woman should use my choices as the “standard” – those are assumptions you are making about what is written – and arguably one could say that if people are feeling bad, it is because they feel they have something to feel bad about. Many ways to look at the same thing.
As I said in the piece though, “You may do any of these things after tons of research and believing it’s best, and that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with…” So I can only assume you and others request that I agree with all decisions. And that’s just not something I agree with, just as you don’t agree with all decisions people make. Oh and the passive-aggressive bit is amusing; I’ve been called flat out aggressive, but never passive-aggressive. There’s always a first, eh?
Wow, Dr. Amy, you are quite vengeful, aren’t you? Looks like you’ve been out of practice for a while. Good.
Good to know that because I am not an MD, Ob/gyn or paediatrician that I have no idea how to be a mum. I am all for different opinions being broadcast in the public domain of the internet, but this is just a ridiculous comment. ” You are not an expert in parenting choices; you lack the relevant education and training in medicine, obstetrics and paediatrics” This comment would apply to the majority of parenting books by ‘experts’. Oh wait, half of them worked as Nannies so they of course are experts in 24 hour care of babies and children. How about ‘Gentle Birth Gentle Mothering’ by Dr Sarah Buckley, MD. Oh wait, she’s Australian so she must have no idea what she is talking about either. Oh, and someone who had the ‘brains’ to study medicine but chose a different career, maybe law, teaching, astronomy, physics, marine biology, I don’t know, maybe midwifery or child health nursing?? They don’t know what they are talking about either. Sorry, I hate to get personal but what an absolute dickhead this Dr Tuteur sounds like. Oh yeah, I’ve looked at her page. I won’t be looking at it again. It doesn’t agree with my philosophies on parenting. Because that is my choice to ignore things that I do not agree with. Even if the article pops up on my Facebook page or email, or via some other form of social media. Sorry Tracy, but I’m going to have to tell Dr Tuteur to FUCK OFF on your behalf.
Hi Tracy,
Sorry, in my sleep deprived state I thought it would be acceptable to put the last line on my above post. Feel free to delete if you like. Cussing doesn’t solve anything!
Stephanie
you know you’re doing/saying something right when you hit the nerve of a paper-wielding *graduate.* just because Amy had the financial resources to put herself through the institutions that grant *official* paperwork (degrees) doesn’t make your education & research invalid. keep up the good work….i really appreciate all that i’ve learned from your writings. much love <3
You keep saying that you’re against assholery, but pro-mommy wars, but the mommy wars are the asshole part of differing child rearing decisions. They are so named and perpetuated by shitty op-ed pieces and a culture that loves to pit women against each other. “War” has a pretty specific meaning, and it isn’t “respectful exchange of ideas and a society that supports families.” You can’t simply choose to reinterpret the label. “You guys, war doesn’t mean hurt each other! It means help each other!”
If you want to argue that “mommy wars” should mean “moms against bad policies for families” I can support that, but it isn’t what you’re arguing here. And honestly, not all or even most moms necessarily agree on what family-friendly policy looks like.
Ending the mommy wars means ending the judgment, insecurity, and assumptions and promoting empathy, respectful conversation, and sincere efforts to help each other. It doesn’t have to mean an end of examination and research and discussion.
Your take of moms against bad policies is exactly what I think!
As I’ve written elsewhere, my experience with the mommy wars has not been ending judgment, insecurity, and assumptions and promoting empathy, respectful conversation, and sincere efforts. I’ve seen people instead pissed about anyone sharing information. Not wanting to talk about the situations that led to choices. So I write from that perspective.
This. Also some people need to learn the difference between empathy and pity.
Well thank goodness you keep telling us all that we “may” make our own choices if we can prove to anyone and everyone we are “educated” to your standards. Thanks for your permission, Tracy. The entire internet was waiting for it.
Yes, that’s exactly what I wrote. Now I’ll wait to dole out permission…
There is an inherent problem with calling it “Mommy Wars”. MGC is right, you can’t just reinterpret the label. Nothing called a “war” should be thought of as civil.
I took the label as I’ve seen it applied. However, I do believe we need nothing civil about reshaping society. War is a wonderful word for it.
Can I make the suggestion that if you are so committed to mothers having access to good information, you really need to be more engaged in your Facebook page. You’ve posted incredibly misleading studies that really undermine your credibility as an objective researcher. Moreover, the misinformation in the comments sections of your posts is truly alarming. It’s hard to take this post seriously when you as a moderater allow your followers to say things like “formula causes schizophrenia” and don’t step in to correct them
Which studies are “misleading”. The FB page is something I struggle with in terms of posts. I can only moderate so much. I rely upon people to bring comments to my attention if necessary and then I deal with it, but I don’t read all the comments because I simply don’t have the time.
Quick edit: Hate the term followers – they’re readers 🙂
Dr. Amy does have a point — many of us do have to deal with MDs who do accept many of the mainstream parenting practices, although her implication that it’s because those MDs have better training and are more knowledgeable is not true. Most pediatric and obstetric MDs do not have to study nutrition or gut development, or brain development, in their training. Their beliefs about feeding babies, sleep, and other parenting choices are based primarily on their own personal experiences and backgrounds — thus, since the majority are from “mainstream” families who pushed their kids to succeed in school, their beliefs are going to reflect that. Having a fancy degree does not make you an expert in all things, nor does it give you a chance to research issues thoroughly (no time for that). Most MDs who are practicing are working extremely long hours these days, what with seeing patients and doing paperwork, and do not have much time to do anything else. Why on earth would they be the one to trust to help you decide whether to sleep train your baby, give your baby formula, have a hospital birth, or circumcise your son? We as parents have to do those things for ourselves.
“most pediatric and obstetric MDs do not have to study nutrition or gut development, or brain development in their training.”
What on earth are you talking about? Have you been to medical school? Have you done an obstetric or pediatric residency?
This is precisely what I mean by “natural” parenting advocates being profoundly uneducated. You have no way of knowing what doctors do or do not do in their training. You just took the word of another layperson who has no idea, either. This is what I mean by an alternate world of internal legitimacy. If you had actual contact with medical training and medical professionals, you would not be parrotting such ridiculous nonsense.
Who on earth do you think discovered nutrition science and made all the major breakthroughs? It was doctors and other scientists. Who do you think mapped out gut and brain development? Once again, doctors and other scientists. It’s truly mind boggling when lay people authoritatively assert what doctors do and do not learn, when those same laypeople have literally no idea what they are talking about.
As a breastfeeding consultant I hear al lot of misinformation coming from docters, nurses and other professionals working with babies and parents. Its is astounding what is told to new mums about breastfeading. It is a big part of why so many mothers give up breastfeeding in my country. Simple basic knowledge about how breastfeeding works, how many feeds per 24 hours are normal, how to help a baby latch and the risks of feeding on the clock etc.. Most of my work is correcting this and handing out proper, complete information so parents can make a truly informed decision.
As for other parenting related topics it is also my experience, and that of a lot of parents and professionals I have encounterd, that a lot of the ‘new’ information is just slowly reaching the people in the professional field let alone the mainstream public.
Because of this I also feel that parents aren’t giving a fair choice. How can you make a choice if you don’t know all your options? How should a new parent now where to look for information? Especially if the ones they trust don’t provide alle the information there is? If a at home maternity carer or pediatricion says it’s okay to feed a newborn on the clock and let them ‘sleep’ trough the night parents believe this. A lot of the time I get a call or e-mail a few days after a baby is born because the baby is losing too much weight. By then the mother is told (by the nurs and/or doctor) she probably hasn’t got enough milk and is insecure about her ability to feed the baby herself. The baby is crying a lot and both parents are exhausted and worried. So the baby is being (extra) bottlefed with formula and nothing is done to increase the (breast)milksupply. This happens a lot and is so unnecessary. It is not giving mother a fair choice at all.
Just a example of how a very important part of (baby)nutrion isn’t always high on the agenda in medical and nursing school.
About folowing your heart or gut feelings: You can’t expect mothers who haven’t seen breastfeeding with family or friends to ‘naturally’ know how it works. Some parts of parenting aren’t about gut feelings or folowing your heart. But about seeing, copying, learning and trying with experienced people arround you.
As a mom to a little boy with medical complications, I can confirm that the vast majority of pediatricians and definitely obgyns know very little about many critical issues pertaining to nutrition, feeding issues, and brain development. I have had the unfortunate experience of interacting with more than I’ve ever wanted to, even from ‘top’ institutions, and only a select few truly know what they are talking about. And again, as I have a PhD in epi and know how to do my research and weed out the good studies from the bad (as many poorly designed studies still make it into the literature), I have often had to educate doctors on both my son’s and my own pregnancy-related issues. Don’t tell me all MDs are educated on this. If that were the case, the last three years of my life would have been substantially easier. I’m so tired of cocky MDs that think they know a lot more than they really do and have no concept of how to appropriately speak to their patients. Most MDs are experts in how to treat common diseases, but the second things get a little more complicated or relate more to development or prevention, forget it. The training MDs receive in public health, preventing illness rather than just chasing it to treat symptoms, or stats/interpreting research is virtually nonexistent, and my MD research colleagues will attest to this as well (which is why they often ask for my help). If you are some rare exception, good for you, but your field sure could use some help in that department.
So you actually have no idea what MDs do or do not know. You have the limited experience of disagreeing with your son’s doctors and believing you know more.
If you want to determine what people study in medical school, collect the syllabi and review them, don’t just make up whatever you think and present it as fact.
Your writing lacks any useful experience or cited research to actually back it up, so if you want to have an argument about who is misstating things as ‘facts’, have a little look in the mirror.
I not only have the professional experience of working with MDs in numerous disciplines that work with adults and peds through my job, but also have had the personal experience of going through dozens of doctors, both general peds and specialists, for my son. Most med students want to practice medicine and not conduct research, so no, they are not trained properly in this or in preventive medicine (and many MDs I know admit that their one lecture in school on epi and stats was their least favorite). Evidence-based medicine is unfortunately not adhered to by many, as they favor personal experience over what the research says (again, because many MDs are quite cocky and think they know best). In fact, I am about to publish a major piece on this that led to much discussion at a recent national conference. So in fact, I know exactly what I am talking about. You, however, are all talk with no experience or legitimate research to back up any of the diatribe that you spew out.
Also, considering that I often lead courses for med students on these topics and train post-docs who want to transition from a career of practicing medicine to one pursuing medical research, I don’t need to collect the syllabi of others… Thanks for the super useful tip though!!!
Jen, your writing lacks any documentation of your claims. Sorry, your personal opinion is not documentation.
If you are so sure that doctors don’t get any training in nutrition, gut development or brain development, please share with us 5 facts from each discipline that you know, but doctors don’t. Then we can see whether your impression of what doctors know bears any resemblance to reality.
You are right; medical doctors know everything and any experience that says otherwise must be wrong. I stand corrected. In the mean time, I will go on making a living by performing the critical research that impacts patient care while you will go on writing articles on why you are superior to others.
In other words, Jen, when pressed to present evidence to support your claims, you couldn’t find any. I’m not surprised; that’s why I asked for the evidence.
Well, see, here’s the thing “Dr.” Amy. I’m a smart girl and a busy mom with a real career. I do my research and I see that your career is based on attacking others online (what a life). Mine is based on actual research aimed to improve the lives of others and help accurate information be disseminated among the public and professional communities.
Besides, you already proved my point. You admit that by my not providing “evidence” (aka, your little homework assignment…cute) that medical doctors truly MUST know everything. So, by your response, you already provided the evidence for me ; )
Here’s the thing, “Jen.” In science we require evidence, not someone’s personal assessment that they are right because they are “educated.”
Yup, exactly my point! And, as an added bonus, it would be nice if those who read the published evidence and reported on it actually had proper training in doing so.
Jen, while I disagree with a lot of things that Dr. Tuteur said, and think she has resorted to some genetic fallacies (my positions are mainstream; therefore, they are right), I do think she asked a fair question. What, specifics would you like to see changed, that most medical doctors don’t know (or at least, don’t seem to, considering how they practice)? I can name a few off the top of my head.
My biggest pet peeve is the over-prescription of antibiotics. It’s like so many doctors don’t seem to understand that antibiotics can’t help if the problem is viral, what antibiotics do to the body long-term (gut health), nor that antibiotic overuse is contributing to the rise of “superbugs” of today. Is this something that they never learned? Or are they choosing to ignore the evidence, for the sake of convenience? Research scientists are sounding the alarm on this, and so many practicing doctors seem to be ignoring it.
The disconnect between research and practice is a big problem.
Another one is prescribing a pill for everything instead of checking on simple prevention/therapeutic techniques first, such as exercise, better rest, and quality nutrition. And many doctors, in my experience, do not give out quality nutrition advice. I can see why people who have educated themselves on nutrition would think that doctors must not have gotten the word on certain things. I STILL see articles in mainstream medical channels talking about low-fat diets, for example. For example– saw a brochure on the pharmacy counter at Walgreen’s recently with tips for “healthy living” saying to avoid all nuts, because they were high in fat. Really? Evidence has shown it’s a lot more complicated than that–there are certain kinds of fats that are actually good for you. Fats from nuts are generally pretty great in moderation. Sure, that wasn’t coming from the mouth of a doctor, but it WAS “mainstream.”
Those are some examples I can think of straightaway.
In fairness, I think these things must be getting more focus in newly trained doctors than they may have in previous generations. I finally found a GP fresh out of medical school who is very cautious about the things I mentioned above, which is why I go to him exclusively, even though it means driving 90 minutes out of town! He won’t prescribe antibiotics without testing for specific bacteria and/or trying other ways to clear the infection first. He always asks if I’m taking care of my sleep, eating right, and exercising, and offers tips on improving these, before moving on to the medical side of things. He recommended trying biofeedback before discussing anti-anxiety drugs, and even suggested giving myself a few months of TLC to heal emotionally after a difficult breakup would probably improve my stress-related health problems. I haven’t EVER seen a doctor of an older generation do these things, besides naturopaths. Maybe I’ve just had bad luck? But I’ve heard so many similar stories from other people, I don’t think my experience with mainstream doctors is an anomaly.
Just because someone is a practicing doctor doesn’t mean they are following evidence-based practices. I think that’s what Jen is referring to.
I think that problem is slowly coming around, thankfully, but not everyone has access to an evidence-based focused health care provider yet, unfortunately.
Sleeping Realities–Yes, very well said. I got the sense (and now especially after looking online a bit) that there was not much of a point to respond any more to Ms. Amy since she clearly makes her money by being a particular personality, one that I would rather not associate with. I have no problem debating people who are in it to learn and not just win, but when you are talking to someone who clearly just wants to be right no matter what, I lose interest.
Dr Amy, as the daughter of a well respected surgeon who qualified in multiple medical disciplines, I can tell you that many in the medical community do not hold simple MDs and their knowledge in very high regard. There are exceptions of course. But the best doctors are the ones who can actually admit that they can’t possibly be an expert on EVERYTHING. They will also tell you that basic medical training is only the beginning of a lifetime’s worth of learning more. I can’t even count the amount on medical journals my father reads in a year. (that’s mainly because I don’t have a PhD and that means I can only count to 10)
I believe I understand the heart of your post, which some people seem to be missing. I regret not having a “true” choice on circumcision because the hospital did not encourage me to do my own research before making a decision – they just said, most people do it and seemed to encourage me to go ahead with it. They didn’t tell me we could do it later, etc. I was a first time mom who was busy working and in school and didn’t know what there was to know. I make sure to tell moms to look up the research before making a decision. I don’t care what choice they make – I just want to make sure they have all the information so that their choice wouldn’t have been different had they known.
I’m sorry. I have an issue with letting the discussion end with that post. Medical doctors are trained to see the body as a specimen that needs to be fixed, similar to a mechanic fixes a car (as a very simplified analogy). How many healthy people visit doctors? If there is a problem, seek a doctor’s advice. To my knowledge, coming from a family with medical doctors and having a (non-medical) doctorate myself, most medical students are not taught about the intricacies of parenting, choosing feeding methods, sleep-promoting techniques, emotional bonding, or even the basics of psychological development (attachment, parenting styles). That’s where developmental psychologists come into play — like Tracy — people who have dedicated their time (and money) to reading and questioning and designing research studies about these very issues. Don’t take your perfectly healthy baby to a doctor and ask him how to get the baby to sleep.
Now, honestly, Dr. Amy, did you learn about the benefits of natural birth (highly, highly doubtful), babywearing, or even breastfeeding in medical school?
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate with this post. Did you read it/edit it before posting? I had to read several sentences over again because the train of thought was so convoluted. It seems you favor commas and run-on sentences over a period making it difficult to follow. I have a hard time taking murky advice from someone who cannot write succinctly.
On another note, you never did tell us what the “real choices” are or what constitutes being “educated” other than to allude that formula, sleep training, c-sections, and corporal punishment is deemed inexplicably an unacceptable choice. I would ask that you include some sort of flow chart or table showing what is deemed a “real choice” and what isn’t with data to support it. Next, what constitutes being “educated” and what doesn’t with data to support it. Finally, what particular actions we as mothers should take to make other mothers follow the “real choices” and dispense said “education” in order to further perpetuate the mommy wars (of which the objective was never stated).
If you are going to take time out of your day to spew half-baked illogical bullshit, you could have at least troubled yourself enough to make it easier to understand.
Real choices, as I said, are ones taken when an individual has access to all information and has considered it. It is one in which systematic blocks do not prevent a person from making a choice (e.g., no booby traps that often lead to early, unintended cessation of breastfeeding). Whatever that choice is – as I said about formula, sleep training, etc. “You may do any of these things after tons of research and believing it’s best, and that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with…” Not once did I say any of those were unacceptable. As such, no flow chart would help.
Educated – well, did you read all the risks and benefits of any choice? Or are you basing a choice on what you have culturally grown up with as the idea of “normal”. Below one comment included a wonderful example about spanking and being provided education around what was assumed to be a given based on cultural expectations and what was witnessed growing up.
Finally, the idea that we must take actions so “mothers follow the ‘real choices'” is irrelevant when true choice is respected. What can you do to help promote true choice? Fight for better maternity leave in the US which has abysmal leave (there is a downloadable letter for representatives on this site if you like). Join a community mother group and offer to help a new mom who is sleep deprived by bringing her food or offering to do laundry or just watch her baby while she naps. Join the Best for Babes foundation which works to eliminate various booby traps that prevent over half of women from reaching *their* breastfeeding goals. Fight your local government to ensure that low income women have access to formula if they want it and really don’t want to breastfeed – or go donate formula to a local food bank (it’s what I did with all the free samples I was sent). All things that you can find talked about and promoted around this site.
More misogyny. Why are only women the ones targeted and held accountable for breastfeeding, natural births, and cosleeping? Why isn’t it called ‘daddy wars’ in an effort to get the male halves of the equation revved up in a competition for who can be the most natural, educated, and attached daddy?
Men are not antagonized over their decision to work or give their child a bottle. Similarly, nobody seems to care that comfort suckling can be provided by a male nipple as easily as a female or plastic one.
When the woman chooses not to breastfeed, so has the man. I don’t know of many men who will allow their child to even suckle. Yet the sweeping moral judgement only target the woman. On another note, what is preventing a man from becoming the primary feeder and buying breast milk himself when the mother of the child cannot breastfeed?
The accountability/education police need to start targeting the ones with the privilege to ignore the ‘Mommy Wars’ altogether.
The next time you hear of a woman who doesn’t want to breastfeed, (and signals she already knows all the benefits,) believe her. Instead, go hunt down the male and lambast (educate) him with the benefits of becoming an attachment daddy, quitting his job, and feeding the baby purchased (or donated) breastmilk out of a bottle all day if he isn’t willing to at least try breastfeeding himself with the help of a lactation consultant. The fact that he might not want to is certainly not an educated excuse for not trying.
Well, as a single father, I can tell you that most men would not take part in something as stupid and pointless as ‘Daddy wars’ and we would laugh at women trying to draw us in. I do not buy breast milk for several reasons, but the biggest reason is I do not trust it. I have no idea who is donating and what they may have in their bodies. I take my baby to work with me, but I’m the boss and I can – most men would not have that option and I would never give any guy a hard time about it.
Funny story – in Boris Yeltsin’s (the first president of Russia) autobiography ‘Against The Grain’ he talks about being stuck on a train ride with his baby daughter and not with his wife. Baby started to cry and there they could find no lactating mother on the train to help – so much to the amusement of the women on the train, he opened his shirt and let his LO comfort suckle on his nipple and it managed to calm her down.
Tracy, I know you’ve had to do a lot of defending here, and I know that this post has pushed buttons for many people, as surely some of the comments have for yo. In your own comments, you sound much more supportive of mothers’ diverse choices than you do in the original post. If it had been clearer in the original text that you understand that a parent, after doing just as much research as you, may choose differently than you and be empowered in that choice, I think fewer readers would have taken umbrage at your tone. I only hope that, instead of using your energy only to defend your post and correct those who criticize it, you will take some time to think about how you wrote and represented your view, in ways that put people off. The title of your post, which deliberately redefines Mommy Wars in a way that most people don’t perceive it, and the difficult-to-defend position of wanting to continue and even intensify a “war” (even in its less gory context of a conflict based on negative energy and mutual misunderstanding) is perhaps not the best way to transmit what you intend: increased supportiveness of families. There is a real discrepancy between what you claim to promote and the way that you express that intention. And even in the meat of your post, you may not have realized it, but you really do give the impression that you think certain choices are superior– ones that are very much open for debate today. Although I’m sure you feel that you are fighting the good fight here, will you at least consider that your controversial presentation has cost something? You have written something that, while perhaps effective for garnering page hits and sparking heated debate, is ill-conceived in terms of actually helping families feel supported, empowered and mutually respectful. I think you could have reframed everything you said here, and been a little more conscious of your tone (which does cross the line into condescension) and written a much more effective piece- one which could have touched more parents in a positive way, instead of repelling them, as it has so many. Even if you think many of the comments are unreasonable, please think about what it is about your words that makes so many feel defensive, insulted or turned off to your message.
Thank you!! First post pertaining to this article that made sense to me!!
I LOVE this piece.
I came to motherhood from positive reinforcement dog training (I am a professional dog trainer and have been for several years before I became pregnant)- I fight hard to help people see the light in training their dogs with scientifically proven, humane training practices. So researching all of my parental choices and setting myself up for success came naturally.
I cringe when people feed their children formula, or have unneccearians because I know how truly bad these things are for the mother, child and society at large. It is such a shame that people read blogs and just take offense and never learn the underlying principles that the blogger is trying to communicate
. Look we all make terrible mistakes as parents- but sticking up for your terrible mistake doesn’t make it better- LEARN. Learn from your mistakes When you know better, you do better!!!! But you can’t know better if your mind is closed and defensive. When research shows your method of dealing with a common parenting problem has bad outcomes, it’s time to figure out if your decision is worth the risk or if there is a better solution to the problem that will fit in with your family situation.
“I cringe when people feed their children formula, or have unneccearians because I know how truly bad these things are for the mother, child and society at large.”
You “truly” know this because you are an expert? You know what is right for every mother in every situation? Btw, I cringe at whatever “unneccearians” is supposed to mean.
“Look we all make terrible mistakes as parents- but sticking up for your terrible mistake doesn’t make it better- LEARN. Learn from your mistakes When you know better, you do better!!!! But you can’t know better if your mind is closed and defensive. When research shows your method of dealing with a common parenting problem has bad outcomes, it’s time to figure out if your decision is worth the risk or if there is a better solution to the problem that will fit in with your family situation.”
And you know through your extensive research just how good or how terrible the choices you judge other mothers for making are? It hasn’t occurred to you that sometimes even the so-called experts that perform these researches routinely contradict their own findings? No, research doesn’t always provide all the right answers and no method is ideal for everyone’s situation. I think you may want to take your own advice about being closed-minded if you think something as innocuous as formula (something millions and millions of people have been brought up on with no side effects) is a “terrible mistake” that will bring down society at large and one many mothers must make because they really have no other options. You’re passing judgment on people whose circumstances and resources can be wildly different from yours. Just because you yourself are a parent that does not mean you know what’s best for everyone else’s children. Get off your high horse and learn something called humility. Believe it or not even you don’t know as much as you think you do. Your self-righteous tone is quintessential of the “mommy wars” nonsense.
I have read most of the comments, but not all of them so if I am restating something I apologize. I have two children. One is just 6 the other 18 months. They were raised quite differently due to a lack of information with my first. They are both great children. I think science will always prove what may be best given a certain situation… and wishing everyone had those same privileges to create the best situation is a great thing for the world to work towards but the reality isn’t that. I am not trying to be negative. I always look at the glass half full. .. but there are still people in the world without glasses. Getting information out to everyone like you say is important. Also no one should feel ashamed with whatever parenting choices they make. I also feel that if a person is ready to become a parent (this isn’t always the case of course) they should take the responsibility to do whatever research they feel is important to raising a child in their family. I collect (for research and my own interest)child care /manuals /advice for wives /etiquette and healthbooks and the such from early victorian period to now. Times,situations and social structures always change as do beliefs by professionals and doctors ect. Information is good. Information is always changing as is science(wasn’t pluto a planet???). I do agree we should look to biology and history to gather ideas and then more importantly every parent should look inside themselves and do what they feel deep down is best (given it doesn’t involve physical/emotional harm). This I know is true and I only am upset with myself with my first child because I did things to people please and I knew it was against my heart and what deep down I wanted. I was young and I don’t say it as an excuse just that at the time I was already constantly being questioned on my age… and I just didn’t want to *mess up* and instead of listening to my heart I listened to the ones who *knew* what was best for my own baby. (I really wasn’t that young 23…only young in our society now but it was planned) My second I did what I have felt I should whether or not society as a whole agrees because only a parent can truely know what is best for their offspring in their family culture.
I just have to say how amazing I think both Brittany and Julia’s last two comments are, Brittany for so clearly illustrating the sexist overtones that exist in many of these debates, and Julia for such a calm, rational, and respectful reaction to both the article and comments. Wow. Thank you, both. Usually comments I read under blog posts descend quickly into flame wars, but this one actually seems to have gotten more intelligent.
The thing is, it’s so very unproductive and often nasty how moms attack each other. I think it would be a good idea to end that particular war and join forces to redirect our outrage at those who cause the friction between individual moms in the first place: the care professionals, the policy makers, the directors of large companies, the media.
I just have to say, the comments on this post are batshit insane.
The other thing I’d add is that there’s a link between people being assholes and criticizing your parenting choices and how free people generally feel to judge women in other ways. i.e. Oh, she’s so fat/ugly/omg what is she wearing? People (including women) are so comfortable being assholes to women that it is clearly misogynistic.
First, to the author, this site is fantastic. I am a new Mom with a four-month-old and although I have been researching and reading about pregnancy, birth, and childcare long before my baby arrived, I did not find this site until recently. Thank you for taking the time to share so much worthwhile information with purpose, compassion, and humor. Is there an archive that I can peruse?
As a (now) working Mom, I do not have time to read over 100 comments, but I did read some and wanted to share my interpretation. The point of this post is that the real problem with our modern society (speaking of the USA) is a deficit in financial, physical, and emotional support for parents. I was unable to appreciate this until I had my baby and realized what a juggling act my life would become. I am dedicated to breastfeeding, but making this work as a teacher with an inflexible schedule is very, very difficult. I was never against bedsharing, but didn’t expect to be a participant until my sensitive baby refused to sleep in her bassinet (the crib also gathers dust) and, honestly, it is the only reason that I am rested enough to function in my classroom. I also had an unmedicated birth, but had to tune out coworkers comments about how wonderful drugs and epidurals are for months before my baby’s birthday. Many were also against the hassels of breastfeeding. I was shocked until I learned how difficult it is to work and breastfeed, but I am not giving up. Thank goodness my mother breastfed us and she and my husband are helping me make this work.
There are many societal changes that could help Moms out, but only Moms (and Dads) understand the struggle. We are not each others enemies.
[…] https://gku.flm.mybluehost.me/evolutionaryparenting.com/ending-the-mommy-wars/ […]
Agreed! I am so sick of hearing about the Mommy Wars. Every media outlet has latched onto it, & I think everyone is overreacting…
I also wrote a short post about this b/c it was driving me crazy too!
http://momshar.com/2013/09/04/mom-judgement-eh-it-happens/
I had a water birth at home with a midwife which was my choice. I’m sometimes nervous when I tell other moms this because I don’t want to come off as all ‘high and mighty’ as a lot of woman who birthed similar to me have. Everyone makes the right choice for their family based on their individual situation and personality. We need to stand up together and fight for issues that we all face together, clean drinking water, safe communities, good schools, etc.
[…] So Mommy Wars …… well just to throw a spanner in the works here is a passionate & thought provoking piece by Tracy G. Cassells called ‘Why Ending the Mommy Wars is Misguided & Dangerous‘. […]
What a refreshing article! There is a not of hypocrisy out there and you’ve really called it out. It is important to continue to speak up for evidence-based practices such as breastfeeding without backing down because some people give advocacy the nasty label, “Mommy Wars”. Thank you!
This rude biased article and all the comments clearly exemplifies what “The Mommy Wars” ACTUALLY are.
I stopped following the conversation awhile ago, but I had to come back, in case anyone is receiving/reading updates. I found a blog post that I can agree with more than this one: http://www.improvingbirth.org/2013/08/cutthecatty/
I agree with this article, but I can see it’s been very difficult to word ‘correctly’! As far as I understand, this article wants mum’s to unite against those who do judge and those who offer false facts as well as companies and organisations who block or make it difficult to get advice and information! For example formula is marvelous, it means that babies who don’t have access to breast milk are not in danger! I hold this view as an exclusive breast feeder. The ‘assholes’ would view it otherwise.
What needs to change is the ‘them and us’ attitude that topics cause between mums, we’re all parents!
I don’t need you to fight for me because you think the only why I would choose an approach different than your’s is because society or some other entity bullied me into. I am educated and can do research as well. I can make my own decisions. I chose to formula feed not because I work and can’t pump due to my employer not accommodating me. I am a SAHM with plenty of time and means and I choose to formula feed. It was my number one choice not the choice I came to because breastfeeding didn’t work for me. Come on! Nicely written, but very flawed argument. Yay, you wrote a nice piece that every mom exactly like you and on your side of these issues well cheerleader for you and totally 100% agree. Kind of tired of any mother with a blog thinking they have it all figured out and have a piece worthy of being shared and all over my news feed. Sorry for my sour grapes but this was the 20th mommy blog post about being a Mom on my news feed. All nicely and cleverly written as well, but again flawed arguments and just annoying and make beautiful mothers feel bad about themselves if they are on the opposite side of the post. Just like the Dear mom with an iPhone, Dear Mom who wrote the Dear mom with an iPhone post…..blah,blah…meh.
I’m not fighting for you. But there are many women whose experiences are what I described and it’s them we should all be fighting for. You chose formula as your #1, great! Many women don’t and we ought to be fighting to give them the chance for their #1 instead of just plying them with information to try and tell them their “choice” was “fine” because it wasn’t really their “choice” to begin with.
It’s too bad about your newsfeed, but I can’t control what people share with you and what you choose to go and read after. If you don’t agree with this, that’s okay, but I’m not sure how it “makes” moms feel bad about themselves.
Perhaps it is about how you view the mommy wars issue? To me, the mommy wars ending are about stopping women from telling each other there is only ONE right way, and it is their way. And I see this a LOT! And it’s sad. For me, I have always done what I thought best for my kids and never allowed others to hurt my security in that, don’t care what they think cause they are not my kids mother. However, most people do care. And they get hurt and they start second guessing. And anyone who does not see that is ignoring a very real problem. I don’t think anyone wants research and conversation to stop. Those are wonderful things when done in logical and respectful and intelligent ways. However, telling another m other she is “wrong” or “bad” because she chooses to or has to work full time, or because she bottle fed her child for whatever reason she needed to, etc, is WRONG! It is not helpful, it is cruel and damaging. Sharing research and ideas and differing view points and ways of doing things is healthy and allows people to make informed choices, but trying to shove it down their throats and putting them down does not help anyone. And, for me at least, that is the mommy war I view this as ending. It’s ridiculous and wrong.
And for me, I see people who tell people they are “bad” as being assholes. I don’t think all the PSAs in the world will change their behaviour and I’m pretty sure they do that type of thing outside parenting as well. I just see and am told more and more to stop sharing information because it might make someone feel bad. I can summarize an article and end up with that plastered all over my email and comments section. Apparently just writing the articles I write here is “shoving it down people’s throats” for many and I struggle to see that.
I’m sorry. But, you woman are the whole reason these “Mommy Wars” exist and I am so sick of it. Just because someone makes a different “choice” than you, does not give you the right to say their choice was the wrong one because you would do something different. Get off your high horse and the “higher than thou” mentality. There are so many reasons people make the parenting choices that they do regardless of what “experts” say. So I will continue to make the choices and decisions that I see best fit my family and my children, regardless of whatever you lunatics think. Your way is not better, my way is not better, do what you feel is best. The end.
Except in some cases one way has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be better.
But that’s not really the point. Everyone seems to be not getting that the author wants women to be able to do what they want. So many women want to breastfeed only to have friends, family, doctors tell them they are doing it wrong and end up on formula because they believed the misinformation they heard. That’s not a woman who has followed her choice, that’s a woman who was forced into a corner and it could have been avoided with REAL FACTS.
Many times, these women end up formula feeding and then get defensive because they THINK they couldn’t do it, and in reality they were steered away from being the type of parent they WANTED to be through the use of misinformation.
Sharing information is important for all of us!
I smoke cigarettes, and every single day I see commercials and signs warning me: Cigarettes can kill you!!! I don’t get offended because these things make me feel bad to be a smoker, because the fact is cigarettes can kill you. No amount of offense or ignoring the issue will make it less of a fact.
Breastfeeding is the best feeding choice for infants in the overwhelming majority of cases. Those cases where breast is not the best choice are EXTREMELY few and far between and are due to extenuating circumstances, they are far from normal situations.
I know so many moms who in their own words really really wanted to breastfeed, but were steered off the path by misinformation. That is wrong, those women should have the information she needs.
Thank you Andrea 🙂 I have stopped commenting on many as it seems they have missed the gist anyway. However, as the saying goes, “No one can make you feel bad without your assistance” so if people are finding things so offensive here, I recommend they look deep inside!
I agree Tracy, that makes a lot of sense.
Were you never A hormonal Postpartum woman?! I believe ANYBODY can make A person feel bad about themselves without their own assistance during that time!!!!! That’s how it felt for me, & possibly many others.
Maybe some women are educated and still make the decisions they make. I was fully educated on CIO with my 1st. I read the book and read books that advocated against sleep training. We did sleep training with our 1st child and after two nights of gently working him into his crib, he slept through the night. He is a happy 3-year old and sleeps through the night to this day. It was my choice, it worked, and why be ashamed of it? I did the research and educated myself. Will I do it with my second? Probably not because he isn’t the same kiddo and I don’t believe it will work with him. Again, I did the research and I am making a decision. Not everyone will agree, oh well.
I guess my disconnect about this whole “mommy wars” and ending is that it doesn’t mesh with the idea of personal soverignty. I choose whether to be pregnant or not, whether to terminate or not, and that is a right we fight for. There’s tons of info from the pro choice/pro life, but regardless, it is my choice whether to give birth or not.
Yet, when I have a child, I have lost that right because you want me to choose what’s “right” for the child I gave birth to? Because of science or what you’ve observed over human history? Abortion wasn’t available throughout human history, yet I have a right to my body and my choices. Abortion is anti-parenting, but I have a right to it and I am celebrated for enjoing that right as female empowerment. When you start talking about wanting to make sure we are actually ‘making decisions and not being booby-trapped” you start sounding like the crazy pro-lifers outside a clinic wailing about how abortions are so dangerous for me and that I am making a misinformed decision… about my own body.
Please, don’t preach about how our society is failing parents and how we should be doing things differently (read: your way once we are “properly” informed) because it is my right and your handling of that right is not in line with progressive values.
I read your article, then I read the comments, then I decided to read the article again. There were so many times while reading the comments where I shouted “YES!” at my computer screen, and all of them were comments that disagreed with your article.
I feel the need to explain why I disagreed though, so I’m going to offer examples of why your post seems more like a “sanctimommies rule” post than a “help provide information for those who lack access” post (which it seems, from your replies to the comments, was your original intent).
1.) “What would it be if we said anything goes and that using formula is just as good as breastfeeding regardless of the reason you used formula? Or if spanking was just another way one person chooses to discipline over another?
It would be shit.
Why? Because in very few cases are these parenting “choices” actually choices and when we try to take these acts and turn them into 100% voluntary acts by every family, we ignore the problems that lead parents to make some of the so-called choices they do.”
I chose to formula feed my children. Not because I read all the information, but because it was my choice. This does not invalidate my choice in the least. But, your post and this particular quote would lead many-myself included-to believe you see it as a wrong choice, not a “true/real” choice. This is a very sanctimommy attitude, and one that perpetuates the Mommy Wars.
I didn’t need all the information in the world to come to this choice. It was what I knew was right for me and my family.
2.) “Sleep training your 3 month old because you have to back at work at six weeks, switching to formula because your child has an undiagnosed tongue tie and you don’t have a lactation consultant on your medical plan and can’t afford one, or pushing your child to ‘self-settle’ when he isn’t ready because you are bombarded with false information about what you should be expecting from your child are not true choices. (You may do any of these things after tons of research and believing it’s best, and that’s a true choice and one that should be respected even if disagreed with, as many people disagree with co-sleeping or breastfeeding a toddler, but when you *don’t* have a real choice, it’s a problem.) You’re being pushed into making the ‘lesser of two evils’ choice that only a society that is non-supportive of families and doesn’t freely share information allows. And that sucks. You should be pissed.”
I agree with the last part of this, in that society needs to be supportive of families, but the first part suggests you’re not in support of those families’ choices. You say they aren’t “true” choices unless people have done all the research. But, they are choices even if there is no research done. I’m not sure how you can invalidate a family’s choice and yet still say you think society needs to do more to support families. You’re a part of society, so these two statements put together are a bit hypocritical.
And that is another way that you perpetuate the Mommy Wars.
Just because the information is out there does not require people who have the ability to seek it out to actually go out and seek it. That is another choice. It does NOT make them bad parents. It just means they are comfortable with their parenting as is and with the choices they have made. That does not mean it isn’t a “true” choice.
3.) “Some of you may be ready to jump in about how you have been bombarded by a stranger at the store while buying formula, claiming you’re poisoning your child, or something like that. Folks – that’s not a mommy wars problem, that’s an asshole problem. And sadly there are assholes everywhere and all the rhetoric about supporting each other isn’t going to change those people.”
You’re right about it being an asshole problem, but it really is a Mommy Wars problem, too. But the thing about this particular quote that gets me is the “rhetoric” statement. I don’t think conversations about supporting each other are rhetoric at all. The definition of rhetoric is this:
“Language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.”
This makes me think that maybe you really don’t understand the Mommy Wars at all. In fact, this makes me believe even more that your article perpetuates the Mommy Wars because you see supporting our choices (what you think aren’t “true” choices) as pointless, that only people who have read all the research are worth supporting.
4.) “Maybe it is a true choice and you’ve done all your research and come to this conclusion about what’s best for you and your family taken as a whole, and that’s why the person still remains an asshole, but for many it’s not, yet that’s exactly what “ending the mommy wars” is pushing for it to be seen as.”
Ending the Mommy Wars is about stopping Sanctimommies from looking down their noses at other moms because the other moms didn’t “choose” the right thing. And if we didn’t make a “true” choice-in other words, we didn’t read all the information but made a choice none-the-less-then we obviously made the wrong choice. And therein lies more perpetuation of the Mommy Wars.
While this may not be what you mean, it is what your words convey.
5.) “I will say this, the people that benefit from the way our society currently is – the government that doesn’t want to offer family-friendly policies, the businesses that don’t want to change to support their workers, the formula companies who want to make a profit over all else, the baby “experts” who don’t read a lick of research but want to sell their books anyway – have managed the great feat of making us think the real problem is with other moms.”
Yes, there is a lot that happens in society that hampers a family’s ability to make informed choices. I do not disagree with you on that at all.
What I DO disagree with is that you’re doing the same thing you claim the government/formula companies/wannabe experts are doing… You’re pointing the finger at other people instead of the women who are out there and in your face about making wrong choices.
This sounds a lot like a defensive cry of “NOT ME! NOT ME!” which detracts from the problem of the Mommy Wars.
6.) “Only now those of us who aren’t towing the line and continue to share information are viewed as the “bad guys”. Those of us who want to change things so that families are supported and given real options are accused of just trying to make people feel “guilty” or say it’s “our way or nothing”. We are heading down a path where families will have fewer and fewer true choices if we allow it. We can’t. We have to do something if we want families to really feel supported and cared for, not just given lip service to.”
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve never been “made” to feel guilty about my parenting choices. I have, however, come upon many women and men who spout the “our way or nothing” mindset. I absolutely believe families should have all information available to them on parenting topics.
I also think that telling someone that their choice isn’t a “true” choice unless they’ve used all the information is a part of the “our way or nothing” mindset.
Just because I didn’t look up information on formula vs. breast milk doesn’t mean my choice wasn’t a “true” choice. Just because I didn’t look up information on co-sleeping vs. a crib doesn’t mean my choice wasn’t a “true” choice. And saying they weren’t “true” choices perpetuates the Mommy Wars as they are-opinions against opinions where one way is the only way and any other is WRONG.
I understand that you had good intentions for your article. You want an open dialogue about providing information to people who don’t have it. That’s great. I want that too. But in the process of saying that, you pushed your opinion as the end-all-be-all of “true” parenting.
First, I will say is that not making a “true” choice doesn’t mean it’s a “wrong” choice for you. It means we have a lack of information being shared. If you feel comfortable making decisions without knowing all the information, that’s your prerogative, but I don’t see how suggesting we make info available to everyone so no one feels regret over a decision is perpetuating the mommy wars.
You also are taking a lot and making assumptions about it. For example, I don’t think people who sleep train are “bad parents” as you suggest. I just have been witness to far too many who have no idea what the risks and benefits actually are. That’s a problem and if someone makes a choice without knowing everything, again, it’s still a choice, but my definition of a “true choice” is one that’s made with all information available and situations available. In the case of sleep training, even all the information wouldn’t negate a society that doesn’t respect the intense work that parenting is and provide the right leave for people to focus on their families for a while. It’s not a “true choice”. However, I know people that did sleep training without any work/societal pressure and for them it was a “true choice” – interestingly they don’t take issue with the view of sharing information and changing the structure of society so that individuals are able to make their choice.
Reading your comments, the main issue really comes down to this issue of “true choice” and equating it with “right choice” and that’s not what I said and not what I think. A true choice is one made when you have (a) all the information available (so you don’t think “I wish I would have known” later) and (b) the support and options available to make whatever choice you do. The problem with the “end the mommy wars” bit is that it’s not just about sanctimommies (whether you include me or not) but about how women who aren’t being given a true choice are being told to just accept it and not complain. There’s no change because people assume all choices are “true” when in fact they aren’t.
I don’t take issue with the idea of sharing information either, as I stated many times in my previous comment.
I think the thing you need to understand is that I do not agree with your WORD CHOICES because they ARE condescending. As I stated, I do not believe it was your intention to be so, but that’s very much how your article read.
As for the Mommy Wars, it’s something completely different than the societal issues of not enough support for families from the government or companies. The Mommy Wars is mother against mother, not society against lack of support. That’s a whole other issue, and one that many mothers (and fathers) on both sides of the Mommy Wars are fighting against. In other words, the Mommy Wars aren’t political in nature.
I’m going to assume that you will tell me that I still don’t understand what you’re saying, but let me stop you there…
Words have power, and your choice of words convey something apparently different than you intended. I think, from here on out, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I wasn’t going to say you don’t understand, I was going to say we see the issues differently. My experience of the “mommy wars” has been from the side of being told I’m trying to make moms feel guilty when I write a piece on new breastfeeding or sleep training or whatever information, even when the information is there so people can weigh the risks and benefits of any decision to make one that works for them (hoping they have systems in place that allow such a true or free choice). So I see this idea of “ending the mommy wars” as being intricately linked to the idea of societal change and systems in place for families. I think that when we try to frame them as separate, and say we all just need to accept everything, we lose the right to fight for change. If we say that there’s no difference between formula and breastmilk – even if formula is better for certain families as a whole – how do we have a leg to stand on to argue that we need better leave policies for mothers so that there’s time to help establish a breastfeeding relationship? The same argument can be made for sleep training and being back at work too early putting unrealistic and biologically abnormal expectations on infant sleep. So I do see them as linked, though clearly you and many others don’t.
That’s okay 🙂 If I was looking for universal approval, I wouldn’t be writing what I do 😉 But thank you for the time to clarify your thoughts and share them.
Thank you for this comment! I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggest that the writer of the post doesn’t understand the Mommy Wars at all. It’s as if she wants to change what the term itself means, so that it stands for a advocacy and excludes whatever doesn’t suit the point she wants to make. Unfortunately, the whole title just feels like clickbait, and it has worked amazingly well. I followed and engaged in the comments on this post for a short while, but it quickly became apparent that the writer’s only mode is defense- there is no room for compromise, or any admission that her choice of words in places can be sanctimonious or off-putting or contradictory to what she claims is an inclusive and family-supportive agenda. I get why she’s defensive, but she never seemed to take any oppositional comments as constructive or valid- the only possible reason for criticism had to be that someone read or misinterpreted her; not that she had unwittingly and with good intentions been sanctimonious or devalued other parents’ decisions. She refuses to acknowledge the Mommy Wars as the thing that it is overwhelmingly recognized as: media-fueled, energy-draining, counterproductive hostility between mommies. (Hence the word Wars. And the word Mommy.) Refusing to acknowledging the accepted meaning of the term while encouraging its continuance just seems to muddle her message. But while a headline like, “End the Mommy Wars and Open a Dialogue” would have been more clear about the point she *claims* to want to make, the headline she chose is actually much more appropriate for the underlying, and perhaps even unconscious, tone of judgment in the post itself that she also prefers not to acknowledge. I had stopped keeping up with the comments, but hadn’t gotten around to figuring out how to stop the email notifications. Then I happened to click on one and it brought me to your comment, which I feel articulates very well some of what is off-putting about this post. I have since gravitated toward the CTFD method of parenting (Google it if you’re not familiar), because it involves fewer overly-researched, unintentionally exhausting proponents! 🙂
Julie, I agree. If a writer is going to be sanctimonious or self-righteously indignant or whatever, she certainly has the right to do so, and the Internet largely supports that sort of stance. This conversation, though, has been hard because the writer is going so far out of her way to insist that she isn’t really doing what she’s already done… that hundreds of readers and commenters are all imagining things, having a collective hallucination that her tone is condescending.
Julia, I did notice that about the post’s author, that instead of willingly accepting open discussion about how her post read (as opposed to what she actually meant), she went on auto-defense. I almost added in my previous comment, after the “Not me! Not me!”, how it resembled the “Not all men” line from the recent #YesAllWomen movement.
It is my sincere hope that the author of the post will accept that the things she said are judgemental, whether that was her intention or not, and that she takes a deeper look into what the Mommy Wars really are.
I chose to formula feed, breastfeeding made me think of a leech hanging off my body. I made this decision on my own. I spanked my boys, let them CIO, did NOT co-sleep at all, made them eat healthy, limited all sugar, and never carried them around all day like a freaking kangaroo. I got negative looks constantly, remarks on how I was hurting them by not holding them constantly and feeding them formula was horrible. My sons are very intelligent, active, healthy young men that respect others. Tell me again where I went wrong and I will shove that “perfect mommy” halo right down your throat. I never judged others on how they were as parents and the decisions they made as long as the children were safe and happ, so DO NOT judge me and act like I am uneducated.
Who’s saying you “went wrong” anywhere? You presumably educated yourself about your choices and made the ones that worked for you. I’d disagree with you on the spanking and CIO, absolutely, but as of right now that is your choice (presuming you’re in a country where spanking is legal).
I completely agree that moms should be encouraged to learn new things about parenting and to do their research before making decisions, but I don’t feel like mommy wars are about making sure moms make informed decisions. They are about insulting other moms and making them feel bad about their parenting. That’s it. Mommy wars are not the same as simply spreading information to other moms. I feel we need to stop the condescending mommy wars so we can encourage moms to learn from other moms instead of seeing everything as an attack on their parenting.
I’m going to be 100% honest, and hopefully in no way rude when I say this, but any time I have ever felt judged or looked down upon as a mother, it was by a natural birthing, exclusively breastfeeding, cloth diapering mother. I’ve never felt judged by a mother who had a C-Section, or a mother who chose formula, or a mother who uses disposable diapers.
I have had (what will soon be 3 C-Sections, not by choice mind you). My first two children were formula fed, because after 6 weeks of pumping, I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was easier for myself, and my family to use formula. I use disposable diapers because there is enough laundry to do already.
Yes, there absolutely needs to be more education. I couldn’t agree more with that. Its up to the mother-to-be to educate herself and make her own choices that suit her and her family.
Sadly though, I have turned to many resources that also have a very pretentious, judgmental tone to them. Its to the point where I am hesitant to read anything in regards to parenting anymore because it just makes me angry. So, educational resources, yes, but who’s the unbiased professional we can trust to provide those resources?
My oldest is 4 years old. I am due with my 3rd in June. I personally know a woman who has one child, that JUST turned a year old, and you know what she posted the other day…..”When a parent tells me that their child ‘Just won’t nap’, well it tells me a lot about their lack of structure…” And the only thing I could feel after reading that was “Who the hell made you the professional? Your many many many years of personal experience????”…………The arrogance of her words….I see them any time I even attempt to read an article, or a forum in regards to parenting styles. It makes me so angry.
Did you know that woman who are strong advocates for breastfeeding have actually coined a term for “women like me” who have ever said “I support breastfeeding, but (insert ANYTHING)…”…its crap like this that starts the “Mommy wars”.
Mommy Wars are not about education or lack there of. Its about mothers thinking they are somehow BETTER than other mothers because of the choices they have made. And again being honest, in my personal experience, THAT attitude has ever only come from a natural birthing, exclusively breastfeeding, cloth diapering mother.
That doesn’t mean that ALL women who do those things are the “assholes” you talk about……but maybe we should make some educational pamphlets that address the issues of judgement, self-righteousness, and acceptance as well.
I just want to point out that its very rare to be “judged” by people who do the same as you. I would be shocked if a mom who had a csection was rude to other moms who had csections. Follow?
I’m sorry you’ve endured what you feel to be judgment of others being better. I can point you to many groups who are the asshokes on your side, ridiculing and name calling those who don’t sleep train, breastfeed, etc. And there are always the assholes in abundance when breastfeeding comes up in particular.
But they are assholes. With their own issues. They don’t represent the vast majority of women or mother’s until we believe they do (thank you media) and start looking for judgment in every interaction.
That’s where education comes in. Because of the manufacturing of the mommy wars, people read judgment into everything. Including the sharing of information. Or the acknowledgment that not all choices are on par at a population level (even if they are the right choices for your particular family).
Does that help clarify?
I don’t comment on these types of blogs so much any more, but I can’t resist putting in a little of my own expertise on what is means to have a degree in Medicine. I’m a board certified OB/GYN, like Dr Tuteur, and can tell you clearly that I have almost no training in breastfeeding, and no training whatsoever in parenting. Pediatricians are pretty much in the same boat.
You see the thing that doctors have a very hard time with is when we don’t know something. We know a lot of stuff about things that most people don’t know about, so we’re expected to have the answers most of the time. So when parents ask me about something having to do with parenting or breastfeeding, I’m supposed to have an answer. If I’m weak I’ll just make one up, or draw one from my human experience, counterfeiting human experience knowledge off as actual medical information. But if I’m strong in that moment (as I usually am), I’ll tell them that I’m not an expert in that topic. For breastfeeding information they should consult a lactation consultant, preferably an IBCLC, and for parenting information god help you.
Dr Tuteur’s supposition that being a Pediatrician or OB/GYN gives you an expertise in either parenting or breastfeeding is just plain wrong. And you don’t need to be either to learn to read medical literature either. You just have to be an intelligent human being who asks thoughtful questions
Thank you so much for your comment! I appreciate the honesty and the awareness of the difficult position doctors are put in when people expect answers!
Labeling every offensive person an asshole just turns this into a huge no-true-scottsman argument.
People can be seen as offensive who aren’t. But the type of comment quoted in here is truly just an asshole comment and thing to do. I’m not saying anyone that offends you is an asshole, as there may be many reasons you are offended, some of which have nothing to do with the person who said anything.
[…] how I feel about being told to stop sharing information about gentle parenting practices! https://gku.flm.mybluehost.me/evolutionaryparenting.com/ending-the-mommy-wars/ So really, this blog is fulfilling a possibly selfish need for me to vent, to “think out […]
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