I hopped online today to come across this picture:
It made me kind of mad. You see, not only do I believe that humiliation doesn’t work very well in most cases, but I find it to be particularly asinine when it comes to lying. You see, when you focus on the lying part of what someone did wrong, two things happen:
- You tend to forget about the action that led to the lying in the first place and so that never gets addressed; and
- You make that person damn well sure they won’t get caught again.
Kids lie because they don’t want to get in trouble. Is that really so wrong? None of us want to get in trouble. And frankly I’m pretty sure our kids learned many of their lying habits from us parents. We lie about a lot and at times even ask them to lie. We tell them about made-up people who bring them treats and gifts or who take their teeth away. We get mad at them for making truthful comments in public (‘Mommy look at the fat lady’) instead of teaching them about the benefits of keeping some thoughts to ourselves. We tell them to tell family they love the gift they hate in the name of protecting feelings (as if lying is the only way to protect feelings when they could honestly thank the effort and thought behind the gift). They overhear us tell little white lies about why we can’t do something for someone else or make it to an event. You get the idea.
But mainly we force them into lying because the way in which we approach discipline over myriad other issues makes them scared to be honest with us. Scared we’ll be unreasonably angry. Scared we’ll hate them. Scared we’ll take our love away. So they lie and when they get caught and we humiliate them, we’ve confirmed every feeling they had before which is what led them to lie in the first place.
And yet we never look in the mirror. We never think twice about how our actions affect their actions. And we certainly never think that we would deserve the same treatment for the exact same actions. I think that’s flat out wrong.
So tonight, I did this just to see how it feels:
- I lied to her about the mini-rides at the mall being broken so I didn’t have to fork over the $2 they now ask for in order to ride them.
- I lied to her about Nutella not tasting good at all because it contains milk and she’s allergic.
- I lied to her about needing to go pee when really I just needed to have a moment to myself.
- I lied to her about the snail I accidentally killed by telling her he was sleeping.
- I lied to her about it hurting when she thought it was funny to hit me because I wanted her to learn that hitting can hurt.
Because I, like every other person I know (parent or not), lied to someone I love and I decided to see what would happen if roles were reversed and she could instill a humiliating punishment to me for lying to her (though I hope she’d be more kind if given the opportunity). This is what I learned…
- People will honk at you. I’m not sure if it’s good or bad, but they honk. I’m hoping for my sake, they understood my message.
- It’s EMBARRASSING. Despite the fact that I chose to do this myself, I was beet red within a minute and horrified that I had to stand there longer.
- Although I realize I was doing this voluntarily (with a glass of wine to help), did I think about the idea of lying to my daughter? Hell no. I was solely focused on how humiliated I was at standing on a busy street with a sign sharing my “failing”.
- Yes, I wouldn’t want to experience that again. Would it mean I stopped lying? As a teenager, no way. I’d keep lying but I’d get way better at it. I simply wouldn’t get caught. Why? Because if lying leads to this, what would the punishment be for me being honest about what had really happened???
I’m pretty sure people who drove by thought I was joking or ridiculous. Why not? The idea of a parent taking this type of responsibility for their actions is kind of unheard of in our society. But we expect to be able to dole out punishments like this to our children and be praised for it. The thing is, there’s no lesson here. The punishment doesn’t fit the crime and there’s no incentive to change, so it’s a fail on so many counts.
When will we learn?
**I would like to state that I have started doing my best to be honest in all accounts with my daughter, but I started doing this BEFORE this post.**
P.S. I do not believe that lying is okay. I just happen to believe that if we do it ourselves we need to work on that before we start doling out big punishments to our kids. There’s a difference between simply changing behaviour out of fear and changing it because we’ve internalized a message. I believe we all want our kids to internalize the message that lying hurts people so that when we aren’t around they will continue not to lie.
P.P.S. Many people have commented on various sites that my lies to my daughter are small and therefore not on par with what this girl must have lied about. I disagree. They may be “small” to me, but I can guarantee you they are big to her. Furthermore, for anyone who thinks small lies to our kids is okay, I ask if you’ll be okay if your kids decide that some of their lies are “small” too – will you simply accept that? I didn’t think so.
“The idea of a parent taking this type of responsibility for their actions is kind of unheard of in our society. ” I don’t think I have read anything as thought provoking on the internet in the last month. I apologize to my son when I mess up, when I lose my temper over something silly…. yes he’s three years old and has no idea why I do it. Sometimes when my twins are screaming, dinner is burning, and he asks me for the 20th time some question I don’t even have an answer to, I just boil over and say something like “Go away!” It hurts his feelings, it hurts my feelings that now he will say it back to me! I take him aside, let dinner burn a little more, and hug him and tell him I’m sorry. Just because a child can not tell us we are wrong, it doesn’t mean we are right.
Beautifully put 🙂 Thank you!
Lauren, Thank you for sharing. Very well said. This is such a aha moment for me. I remember steeling money from my parents when I was 5 years old. $50. Yep! I just took it. I didn’t know what I was doing really. All I wanted was to buy cup cakes like the other kids at school.
When my mother found out she got so angry and said she would tell my teacher in school. I became so ashamed of myself and was so afraid everyone would know what a bad girl I had been. My father hid his wallet away for 3 years!!! For 3 years they reminded me what I had done and told me they could not leave their money around because I was a thief.
And what did it teach me? To steel and lie (it became a compulsion) without people knowing it! I’m 38 years old and when I was 20 I couldn’t spend a day without lying. I also stole things during my teenage years without knowing why I was doing it really. There was no good reason for me to steel.
So one day I decided to tell people I was lying -when I was- in order to stop me from doing it. People started thinking I was weird but it worked. I hated telling people I was lying but I had to stop. And I decided to be totally honest about money. When the cashier would give me too much money at the store instead of keeping it I would give it back.
So much hurt for cup cakes!!!
I do the same thing. For example…this week BOTH of my monkeys are sick. So both are cranky…so I am cranky! Aftera day of screaming and crying (on all of our parts) I had a moment of clarity and sat on the floor (letting dinner burn a little) and held them and apologized for the yelling I had been doing. I always apologize if I have done something that I wwouldn’t want them to do or if it is something done rashly out of impatience or anger
My kids are better for it. They are 3 and 23 months and will apologize to me if something they say or do hurts me. Even better they apologize to OTHERS and try not to repeat the behavior. Because it really is all about leading by example.
For the record…I agree that the parental shaming is RIDICULOUS.
I just wanted to say that the previous commentor’s last sentence was beautiful <3
Lauren L – " Just because a child can not tell us we are wrong, it doesn’t mean we are right."
My thought exactly!!! Lauren nailed it!
Great story! I hope this kind of true responsibility spreads!
Wow Tracy, I really am in awe of you.
I loved this post, and I love that you have really made me think.
Well, I’m going to be the unpopular voice of decent again. I call complete BS on this post.
1st, you know perfectly well that public humilation is a time honored, and incredibly effective way to alter behavior. It’s used in almost every society, from the completely peaceful pygmies to the ancient Romans. The notion that we *don’t* want to be humiliated in public means we *will* change the behavior to avoid what is without doubt one of the most uncomfortable setting a social person can find themselves in. And your own post shows you *know* this: after explaining how incedibly embarrassed you were, you end the article by stating you are going to stop lying to your daughter!
2nd, focusing on lying isn’t missing the point. It’s the lying that is the big problem. Think of your own situation: your daughter (say in a few years when she’s 4ish) going and trying nutella because someone tells her you were just being silly when you told her it was icky. She finds it delicious and eats a bunch. She starts having massive allergic responses and you, concerned for her help, ask her what she ate. You don’t really care that she ate the nutella, at most you’d roll your eyes and tell her she needs to not eat that because she’s allergic. But if your daughter lied to you and said she hasn’t eaten anything then you are going to be beside yourself with worry. What caused this? How can I stop it? Do we need to go to the ER? Another round of tests to check for alternative allergies? When you eventually find out she lied about eating the nutella you’ll be angry, justly so, not because she ate it, but because of all the problems caused by lying about it. Lying is almost always like that. It’s *not* the underlying action that causes all the trouble, or gets them into a lot of trouble, it’s the lie itself. the last time my brother and I lied to my mom, I was about 13ish, my brother and I had been outside playing and had made a small fire. Usually no big deal, we were country kids and were well accustomed to fires. But it was the dry season and there were lots of forest fires that years and fires had been banned. My parents smelled smoke and my mom stuck her head out the door and asked if we’d made a fire. We looked at each other and, because we were STUPID lied to her. Not a minute later Dad repeated her question and we fessed up, there was no way we could lie to Dad. But we knew perfectly well that the issue was the lie. At most we would have gotten chided for starting a small fire and told to put it out. But had we gotten away with the lie the Forest Service would have been called and man hours, money, worry, stress, and resources needed elsewhere all would have been spent trying to find the new forest fire responsible for the smoke. I could go on giving examples all day, but we all know it’s true. It’s ‘the lie’ that grows and causes the problems, not the initial act. And our kids *need* to know from as early as we can instil it, that the punishment for lying will *always* be significantly worse than whatever you did you might feel like lying about.
3rd, finding out a lie is not a particulalry difficult thing. Getting someone in trouble for lying doesn’t make them figure out how to ‘get away’ with lying, it makes them stop lying. It’s a simple concept: lies don’t last. It’s almost impossible to actually get away with a lie of any substance for any length of time. And is certainly well beyond the ability of the vast majority of kids (even teens and young adults, even most *adults*). It takes a particulalry clueless, niave, or deluded adult to actually let a kid get away with a lie. And, after you get caught a time or two, you realize that attempting to lie is simply *not* worth it. You *know* you won’t get away with it, you *know* it’s just going to make it worse, you *know* it’s pointless. The lying stops.
And 4th, no, ‘we’ don’t tell our kids lies. ‘We’ don’t tell them imaginary people take their teeth or bring them presents. ‘We’ don’t chastise them for saying truthful things. ‘We’ don’t say the ride is broken when we just don’t have the money. ‘We’ don’t mirror and teach our children to lie by example. LIARS do these things. It’s just as easy to tell your kid ‘sorry honey, not today’ than it is to lie and say ‘sorry, the ride is broken’. Only difference? One builds consistancy and trust between parents and children, the under underminds it. What happens when the ‘broken’ ride suddenly starts up with another kid on it? Then you’ve taught your kid that you can’t be trusted. What happens when you need that trust and it’s not there because you’re wasted it away on foolish lies? Someone, in one way or another, is going to get hurt.
In conclusion. Lying is a *huge* problem that causes far more problems than nearly any of the underlying issues, because of those this parents need to use everything they have in their arsenal to make sure their kids understand you *never* lie. If that means a child needs a stiff serving of one of *the* most effective social punishments recognized across culture and history, so be it. Furthermore parents who lacked this critical portion of their upbringing need to buckle down on themselves and stop being liars. There is no more excuse for lbeing a liar than any other habitual character flaw like being a thief, drunkard, addict, etc. These are not things decent people do. A decent person doesn’t lie, and an adult is more than capable of recognizing the ‘why’ of that: lies cause problems, not solutions.
I actually stopped lying to my daughter *before* this. I do, however, agree parents need to stop lying too and this is the crux of this – we push things on our kids when we do it in front of them, to them, and ask them to do it. Then we dole out harsh punishments! I don’t buy that it does anything. And as for lying, even less so. I do know public humiliation *can* work in *some* areas when there’s a lesson associated with it (even though I personally don’t like it), but lying isn’t that area. There’s work on moral development and as humans we respond to how the punishment fits the crime and the character of the person who doles out the punishment. Most parents lie around and to their children but expect them not to do the same and kids see that and make it part of how they assess the person and the punishment and thus the likelihood they’ll internalize the lesson going forward. As long as this dad was willing to do the same if he got caught in a lie, then I’d say okay, that’s punishment in their house and it’s how it works for them, but I sincerely doubt that he’s going to do that.
And for the idea that lying is the bigger issue – it may have bigger ramifications but only because of the initial act! Again, it’s secondary to the initial act. And if you can show that admitting to eating Nutella or starting the fire isn’t going to be treated with a harsh punishment, the likelihood of coming clean is greater.
Btw, I liken this type of punishment to CIO – yes, it has effects on behaviour, but they aren’t necessarily what we want for our children!
Way to go, JESPREN. Reel these adrift parents back to the land of true logic, reason and wisdom. You called it right when you said this post is BS.
Tracy, it is RIGHT to feel guilty for punishing your child when they mirror YOU. It is also right to change YOUR behavior, and be the good example your child needs. It is WRONG not to discipline and train your child in the way they should go because you yourself have done the same things. Be honest with your daughter about your mistakes, correct your mistakes, and above all, strive to be honest with your child. DON’T perpetuate the problem. Two wrongs don’t make a right. EVER.
You don’t know this dad, and are assuming he parents like you do. Maybe he strives for honesty, and that is why lying is such a big deal to him. Ever think of that?
The very kind of thinking that is portrayed in your post is why there is an “us” and “them” mentality in our youth of today. When adults lie about the dumbest of things, who can trust them???
I’m going to have to disagree with you about part of this. I imagine it has to do with how a parent responds to infractions, no matter how minor. I learned to lie to my parents to avoid getting into ridiculous trouble for minor things. When they caught me in a lie, I didn’t learn to stop lying, I learned to lie better and more often and more carefully. I lied to them until I got married and moved out at 24, and then I started lying to my husband about ridiculous things. It’s taken me a long time to stop doing it and I still have trouble occasionally. Lying mostly likely won’t be a problem for very long if the response to the initial wrongdoing is reasonable. Shaming a child doesn’t do any good. I’m not sure that shaming an adult does either because when my husband attempts to shame me, all it does is make me angry at him, not sorry for what I’ve done.
I’m with Jespren on this. While I don’t think I would use humilation as a punishment, I do believe that the lying is a big part of the problem. There have been several times where I’ve asked my boys a question and reminded them that they won’t get in trouble for the answer, only if they lie about it.
There are SO many neglectful parents in the world today who choose to completely ignore their child’s behavior and pretend that it will work itself out on its own. Or they simply don’t care. Laziness. At least this man is actively involved in his daughter’s life, which hopefully will lessen the likely-hood of her winding up in worse situations in the future. Is he perfect? Of course not. Are we? Nope. But most parents are doing the best they can, with no manual or handbook, only with what they’ve been told or witnessed themselves. Cut the guy a break. And people, especially people like the one who decided to take this to another level by making her own little display, might do well to stop focusing their energy on judging other parents’ lives and maybe point it in a more helpful direction like helping child who have NO parents or awful ones in bad situations (like foster homes and institutes). Go volunteer somewhere and put good into the world instead of picking apart people who are desperately trying.
I recommend you read this:
http://www.conscienceparenting.com/2012/07/19/that-time-i-called-a-dad-an-asshle-the-whole-world-freaked/
I’m with CP that I find it hard to praise just showing up and the fact that we’ve gotten there is a problem. And as I said to Jespren, if this dad is willing to do what I did when he gets caught lying, then I’ll retract it all. Lying isn’t a problem only for kids. But are we seriously not going to make a point for fear of offending someone who at least has shown up in some regard? That’s what we’re at? It’s not the bottom of the barrel so don’t say anything? DO you extend that to politics? Work? Should you not say anything at work as long as someone is doing *something*? What about your politicians? They do actually show up and there are many lazy ones of them. Should we not ask better simply because it could be worse?
Totally. The fact that parents now get praise just for not ignoring their kids and the whole “mom enough” movement is disgusting to me. This sort of punishment also feels very much to be all about POWER, which I really think can be the opposite of good parenting.
It’s true. Public humiliation and shame are VERY effective forms of getting people to change their behavior. I just listened to a very interesting study from Freakonomics that looked into this method.
The majority of people have a deep, basic human need to be accepted and to fit in. Shame and humiliation threaten that need and thus motivate the person to change behavior.
It is true that parents teach their kids to lie. The authors of Nurture Shock did some in-depth research on this phenomenon (an excellent read if you haven’t yet).
There are other ways to deal with undesirable behaviors that are just as effective (or more effective) and don’t have long-lasting effects of using guilt, fear, and shame to get your kids to behave (especially in areas where we as adults fostered the behavior, knowingly or unknowingly).
Conscious parenting takes more time and effort and patients. No doubt about that. But I firmly believe the future of the world is worth that extra effort.
Thanks for your transparency and courage to tackle this one!
I also recommended the book Nurture Shock. It’s really an eye opener.
I’m sure that shame and humiliation DO work – other commenters have mentioned this in the context of printing convicted criminals information in papers etc. – but I don’t believe the place for it is in the context of the attachment relationship between parent and child. I think it is absolutely damaging to the trust and vulnerability that is necessary for that type of relationship.
And to suggest another book, Hold Onto Your Kids, by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate, explains in great detail why it is totally vital that the attachment between parents and children be preserved all the way through adolescence (there are ramifications to our society in the form of violence, bullying, sexuality, and more).
[…] Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire […]
Great article! I was belly laughing at the picture of you holding up your sign. I wonder what the people driving by thought. LOL
I think the problem starts that first time they try lying and you punish or humiliate them for it. There is no incentive to tell the truth, only to become a better liar. If you catch your child in a lie I think the best thing is to ask why. Why did you lie? If they say they were afraid, then it is probably time to examine your parenting methods. Your child should trust you to teach them the difference between right and wrong in a loving, supportive way, not in a dominating, fearful way. Reward honesty, even when you are upset. Sometimes all it takes is some kind words. When I catch kids in a lie, I always say “Thank you for telling the truth, I really appreciate you being honest” and then I discuss the action that was lied about “Why did you steal that candy from your friend? Do you remember when we talked about how stealing is not ok? If you really needed candy that badly you should ask me and we will find a way to work it out without stealing.”. So we aren’t teaching our kids it is ok, we are treating them like people, respecting them and teaching to respect us enough not to lie and to follow the example we hope to set.
Thank you for sharing Tracy and Lauren, I love that last line!
I think appreciating honesty and providing an impetus to be honest is key as well. It doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences, but that the honesty is a big thing that earns them respect from others!
Yes this….
You are a terrible excuse for a parent, you are not teaching accountability only excuses, your daughter will have a very hard time becoming a human being
I would LOVE to hear how my taking responsibility for my actions would result in my daughter only learning excuses. I imagine it’s hard for you to understand that children learn messages outside of what we actually simply tell them. They pay attention to what we do and say and not just to them, but to others as well.
As for my daughter, she’s actually quite empathic and loving to other children. Probably more so than children that have been taught “accountability” according to you.
Also….your daughter is probably already a human I’m guessing, so…..yeah….
Last time I checked she was 🙂
Why is she a poor excuse for a parent? Good grief. When did taking personal ownership and seeking to be a better human being turn into bad parenting? Maybe your anger is coming from getting humiliated as a child,,,while it can be challenging to have a child lie, I don’t see what humiliating will do except create sneaky and angry children.
Tracy – I love that you did this. The picture really prompted discussion on many pages and that makes it all worth it!
But UGH, it’s hard to read some of these comments here.
Especially this repeated phrase:
‘”Public humiliation and shame are VERY effective forms of getting people to change their behavior. ”
Seems so many miss the point that while shame and humiliation may change behavior…. it isn’t changing it for the BETTER!
People who feel bad about themselves DO NOT do better.
I’m gonna be bold here and take a wild stab and say that adults who feel bad about themselves – are even more dangerous than children who feel bad about themselves. So when does it stop?
Shaming is not effective at anything except inciting violence and building walls.
If you teach your children than they are perfectly capable of changing and bettering themselves, that they have free will, will power, self control, and the ability to express those, than the fact that they did something that makes them feel bad will absolutely cause a change for the BETTER. They buckle down, explore their will power, express their self control, hold themselves accountable to make better free-will choices, and use those negative experiences to better themselves, to rise above those feeling they don’t want to repeat, and get to feel all the very positive, wonderful, and empowering emotions one gets when one rises above their own faults and demands something better of themself. If, on the other hand, you teach people that free will is an illusion, that we are controlled by circumstances and are victims of our environment that can’t possibly be expected to actually control our wills, practice self control, or rise above any character flaws that express themselves, then they will assume those miserable feelings are all that is possible and then they are highly unlikely to change ‘for the better’. But then that is hardly what I’d call an appropriate mindset to expouse to your children.
I think you’re right here, but don’t you think that if you’ve taught kids those lessons, you don’t need to publicly shame them? That they will feel bad on their own and work to better themselves???
For the most part yes, but you know how plastic young children are, they need that external stimuli to prime their own personal development. Self control is *hard* for children, and you really need to give them a reason to develop their ability to self-regulate. I think by the time well raised kids are in the 10-12 age group the likelihood of needing any form of punishment is very low and instances of disobedience and acting out is very rare. But that assumes they had those formative years with a consistent and well established doctrine/rules/limits/outlook/etc pick your word. Sometimes kids don’t start getting that until much later, and given how tweens and teens tend to crave social acceptance these kind of punishments can really hit ’em where they live and make a very big impact to make up for lost time when parents have gotten a late start (for whatever reason, not all families get to begin with infants after all) and as long as that is consistent and accompanied by an appropriate message (as explained above, you can do better, you are capable of better, you should expect better etc) it can go a very long way towards really turning an out of control kid around.
And, of course, never should the stupidity of humanity be underestimated. A wonderfully well behaved fifteen year old is still capable (just like a 20 year old, or a 50 year old) of monumental acts of stupidity on occasion. And consistency is just as important in those years as the early years. As mentioned before, my brother and I lied to our mom when we were about 13ish. We *knew* better, we knew our parents expected better, we were mortified that we did it and disappointed out parents. And we hadn’t done *anything* like that for many years previous. After we got done hanging our heads in embarrassment out in the yard we walked ourselves into the house to stand in front of our parents and accept just punishment. If there had been no punishment then our internal sense of restraint would have slipped. Now, my parents knew we were mortified, apologetic, and understood that we had been idiots. Because of this our punishment was truncated from what we expected and knew we deserved but if there had been no punishment at all then it would have been a poor lesson indeed.
btw, i’m not ‘age-ist’ I recognize that such public punishments do wonders for adults who have some of those monumental stupid moments. Public punishments such as holding signs on the roadway and posting convictions, names, and/or pictures on billboards or other public locations have been tested by various judges and law enforcement agencies in several places in the U.S., and rates for re-offenses have been substantially lower than for those subject to more common jail, fines, or community service. It works, and we do a huge disservice to both adults and children when we removed it from the standard continuum of punishments commonly seen in situations ranging from parenting and schools to civil and criminal courts.
Personally, I think these extreme examples, holding signs in public, are more appropriate for the ‘late start’ teens who need a real wake up call that their care-givers *are* serious. I think more subtle ways of invoking public shame is generally more appropriate for children. Just knowing that their parents are disappointed, or that their friends will know they messed up when they have to explain why they can’t come to a party or playdate (groundings can be *very* public forms of punishment that can be really embarrassing if you have a good group of friends who will call you out on your crap when they learn you are grounded), having their punishment be obvious to their friends, or being made to make a public apology I would say are more appropriate for the average kid. Like, if a 6 year old steals money from mom’s purse for the ice cream truck an example of public shaming I’d find appropriate is to ban them from buying ice cream for a week and have them inform their friends they are banned from the ice cream truck because they stole money. No reason to make them stand in front of the ice cream truck holding a sign, they’ll remember every time they hear the song and so will their friends, which will help fuel self control in the future.
Jespren, I’m curious as to whether you are a psychologist or an early development expert?
I believe you may be Hester Prynne’s worst nightmare.
Tracy, this was a very brave thing for you to do and I applaud you for staying classy and also leaving up the comments from the crazies.
It won’t let me reply to the above thread where you asked me the question. No, I am just a scholastically minded layman. I find many areas of study fascinating: psychology, early development, anthropology, and cultural history all being relevent to the topics this blog brings up.
This, this exactly. Yes, absolutely, humiliating your children WILL teach them a lesson. A lesson that they were 100% correct in fearing to tell the truth. My parents decided I was a liar when I was 5. My teachers were told about this in my presence every year, it followed me all the way through highschool, even though I was moved to different schools three times. They made a point of “warning” my teachers that I was not to be trusted, that every word out of my mouth should be viewed with suspicion. I was never given the opportunity to change. What that taught me was to be a better liar and never get caught. And I got very very good at it indeed.
I was often told that if I told the truth, I wouldn’t be in “as much” trouble. Translation: I’d still be in trouble, just a different kind that they figured wasn’t as bad.
To a child that’s like saying “You can be spanked or you can go to bed without dinner.” Both are abusive. Both are painful. Both are humiliating. There is no motivation for telling the truth, because no matter what happens, you will be punished. A choice between punishments is no choice at all. There is no motivation to be truthful, just to be a more skillful liar and not get caught.
It is possible to raise children to good morals and acceptable behavior without purposely causing them pain. Whether it be physical, mental or emotional, it is unnecessary and wrong.
Yes, Laura – your response totally resonates with me.
Thank you for your thought provoking post. It is so hard for some folks to see that punishments are bad for human beings. If they did then they would have to say that there are flaws in the way they were raised and that their parents made mistakes and that they make mistakes. Which is just fine. We are all human and make mistakes and need forgiveness. We are all doing the best we can. Love and caring and kindness is the answer. I do want to share this post from Real Child Development about limits and how you can let your daughter know what she can’t have Nutella and stick to it with confidence. http://realchilddevelopment.com/parenting/is-your-child-out-of-control (Not that your daughter is out of control at all! It’s just the title of a wonderful post. :))
Awesome article! Made me think that another way we teach our kids to lie is making them say, “I’m sorry” to so-and-so when they do something wrong. They are not sorry and making them lie and say they are is just laying foundations for bigger lies in the future. It just teaches them to say whatever they have to to get out of uncomfortable situations. The best way to teach them about apologizing is to let them see us apologizing to others. (At least so I’ve read. It makes sense and we’ll see how it works with my DS in a few years.)
Yes, firstly, shaming and publicly humiliating kids is absolutely NOT a respectful way to discipline children and I think it is damaging to the trust inherent to an attached relationship.
Secondly, while the child above is older, we also have to remember that lying in preschoolers is a developmental phase that has been observed universally. So we should actually expect it, and while we still have to teach that it’s inappropriate, I don’t think we need to take it so personally. It’s normal and in fact, a sign that the child is developing the ability to see from another person’s perspective (Theory of Mind) which is also needed for empathy.
There is an excellent chapter in the book Nurture Shock on Why Kids Lie. I would recommend it to everyone. It definitely talks about the fact that kids routinely observe their parents lying, and it also mentions that if you want to encourage truth in your kids it isn’t enough to promise clemency about whatever they have done. Even if they won’t get in trouble, they know you’ll be disappointed in them for whatever it is, and they want to regain your favour. Apparently, it works better to tell them that you’ll be so happy and proud of them for being truthful. It’s really fascinating stuff.
You were very brave to willingly stand on the street like that. Wow.
[…] Liar Liar Pants on Fire […]
The best way to teach honesty is to be honest. The best way to teach anything to a child, to your child is to mirror a behavior. Kids do what they see and what we do. Punishment comes later and usually if we are willing to admit it, after we’ve messed up, broken trust in some way. Kids don’t randomly become jerks or liars. I find it humble of you to admit where you lied to your daughter and find it interesting how many parents think of those lies as warranted or harmless. Maybe I’m weird but I remember finding out from my friends that Santa wasn’t real and defending my parents who would “never lie about anything” to my friends. When I asked, my mom still tried to lie about it in spite of hearing that I’d been defending her to my peer group who had been let in on the gag much earlier. When she confessed, I bet she still thought it wasn’t that big of a deal but from that day, honestly, I never respected anything she said as truthful. I wasn’t certain she’d be honest if she thought she had a good or even a silly reason (in the case of a Santa myth) to lie to us in spite of all our Christian upbringing and pounding in our brains how bad it was to lie. A little breech of trust to a child, who has faith in you, is a big deal. The humiliation was on my end, humiliated among my peers who were told the truth before I was and I suffered the consequences of defending my “honorable” parents. I guess humiliation does work because I learned not to trust my parents. I never lied growing up. One day someone put it to me like this (I was maybe 17 or 18), “lying is a sign of weakness”. That stuck with me. Since hearing that, no matter how tough or seemingly minor the situation I think to myself, do I want to make a great compromise of my integrity over something small, silly or seems to me as being helpful? A compromise of my integrity in the long run, doesn’t ever seem worth it. Fundamentally speaking, the first lesson as human beings is to be honest with ourselves about everything. That’s where the real mastery comes in. Until we’ve mastered that, pushing honesty onto others using any form of shame seems a little if not a lot ultimately self shaming. I feel bad for that guy who made his daughter hold the sign. I bet he didn’t think it would go viral and in spite of all his good intentions and posts that validate him in his quest for righteousness, a small part of him has to feel at least a tiny question of his own integrity, motivation, etc. And now, it’s out there for the world to guess about, too.
Shaming doesn’t work – it just sends people underground. Kids DO try to get away with stuff, because they are human. We ALL lie – anyone who says he doesn’t…is a liar! The reason public shaming has gone out of style is precisely because it doesn’t work. Modeling correct behaviour, appropriate consequences for misdeeds and respecting the child’s humanity go a long way further towards them internalising self-discipline.
[…] Evolutionary Parenting had my favorite response to this recent phenomenon. She walked the walk. Did she learn her lesson? […]
I absolutely hate this trend of parents forcing their kids to hold signs and photographing them, then spreading it on social media. I don’t think humiliation is an effective part of parenting or discipline and it’s saddening to see people supporting it, so great post 🙂
Tracey, I felt sure I had read a review of some of the neuroscientific research into shaming comes down pretty conclusively on the side of “it doesn’t work (either to create internally motivated moral behaviour or to dissuade amoral behaviour)”.Can you provide links to such research?
As for developing self control, I am sure that not shielding kids from the *natural* consequences of actions and choices is an important idea.
Best regards,
Nicole Tate